Are exotic material prices fair?

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Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Moneyman » Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:39 pm

:mrgreen: My point here is that if mining is difficult then the player is at a disadvantage. I won't be popular for posting this.

… Miners should never pay $$$ for ships or ship mods, when exotic is used, barter is much cheaper as you'll see.

Consider exotic material quantity(s) times 125% as fair for manufactured goods requiring exotic material.

And consider NPC starbase price for a class 1 player ship = $10k a fair unit price without HD.

… Its reasonable to think that a class 1 ship's price is a fair unit price when exotics are the source of the price.

… Then class x player ship without HD barter price is: exotic quantity times 2 raised to x -1 power.

Examine class 1 ship mods except HD for total niobium and tin quantity(s): (m is a multiplier)

Axial co2 laser .. .4 niobium + .4 tin .. clx Gravity Generator ... .5m niobium + .5m tin
Mining beam ..... .4 niobium + .4 tin .. clx Warp drive .............. .4m niobium + .4m tin
Ram scoop ....... .6 niobium + .6 tin .. clx Capacitor ................ .6m niobium + .6m tin
Salvage beam .. .4 niobium + .4 tin .. clx Reactor ................... .5m niobium + .5m tin

… class 1 = 1.8 niobium + 1.8 tin plus m = 1 .. 2 niobium + 2 tin

… 3.8 niobium + 3.8 tin = 7.6 exotic or 1 exotic = $1316 is the fair price NOT $200k.

Class 1 HD = .2 Electronics, .4 Mechanical parts, .6 niobium, .6 tin, .2 carbon.

… Since exotics are priced more than 100 times the price of carbon lets ignore carbon.
.
… Electronics .25 Alum, .5 Silcon, .25 Iron … Each of which are priced lower than carbon.

… Mechanical parts .01 carbon, 1 Iron Both components are negligible in cost.

… 125% of .6 = .75 so fair barter would be .75 niobium + .75 tin

… Then class x ship HD fair barter is: (.75 niobium + .75 tin) times 2 raised to x -1 power

… class 1 HD's fair price is $1974 = 1.5 times $1316

A fair price for a class 1 ship with HD is: $12k

A fair price for a Leviathan without HD is = $43,127,425.6

… m is 2 raised the 14th power = 8196

… class 1 mods 1.8 niobium + 1.8 tin plus class 15 mods .. 16384 niobium + 16384 tin

… 32,771.6 exotic required times $1316 (fair price for exotic).

A fair price for class 15 HD = $16,178,904 … From $1316 X 8196 x (.75 niobium + .75 tin)

:roll: Bottom line, laisez faire is great if you have power. Not so good if you don't.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Wulf » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:02 pm

yea, sorry this is not going to go far.
many times was there a push to bring exotic mats down, and it only happens for a few months if there are a lot of mats that floods the market.

I tried many times to get asteroid aging changed and speak to the root problem, but to no avail. ( i wanted the 1 week equal to roughly 4-6 weeks of current aging, with corresponding asteroid growth look, then a drastic reduction in growth)

believe someone mentioned they wanted the ability to price items with nio/tin instead of credits in the SM (might be a good way?)

but at the end of the day the SM prices are all out of line, and the only way to trade is from moons' shipyards. and because it's low demand it only takes one player to supply everyone. I tried to be a ship builder and i can build everything up to class 19 (just waiting for hulls to be released) but it's not easy to do, lots of poor interfaces and you either have to mine yourself or buy nio/tin/coils, take the weeks to assemble and then hear about the constant whining about the price, and can i have it now, pay later etc. and at the end of the day i charge about double what moon charges. I don't see how he can find it's worth his time to build items at the low market values. to me it's worth about 2 to 3 times base costs for the extra work and research that goes into it. my time has value.

i just post this as my point of view I am done with the game, i will see if changes from update as sufficient to get me to play a while longer but it looks unlikely. (will pop in now and then to say Hi)

btw i am unclear on the price for nio/tin, currently what are the prices around 200k per or 50k per?
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby RAM » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:29 pm

The challenge comes from blending the supply and demand markets of players with the constant demand Local Markets at fixed prices. No easy way of fixing it without leaving new players at a total disavantage to established players. So LM prices stay fixed so a player can play solo or a new player can sell somewhere.

Nio and tin are fixed in Contract Boards also. It is players how decide they want to pay much more. They can because of the always buying state of the LM. The LM has to buy unlimited or there would be no reason for anyone new to build massive colonies.

Blending these two systems will always create complications.

I am really hoping that the addition of T2 commodities will really help with overall game play. It will give us more reasons to produce the T2 items and use up more T1 commodities.

Since it will take the President to help implement it, either Hubes has to do it now, or we have to wait till the next elections. These should be hitting soon, I hope.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Moneyman » Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:47 pm

:mrgreen: Thanks Wulf for taking the time, considering how you feel about the game.

This is primarily a reminder to RAM that the LM is not the problem ... its the price of the main currency: exotics.

I've decided to do barter whenever possible because the market prices are obscene and unlikely to change.

This is also a message to new players: Pay with exotics and use $$$ sparingly ... Don't drive the price up more.

I agree that gates are important but please don't make exotic scarcity worse than it already is.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby RAM » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Moneyman wrote::mrgreen: Thanks Wulf for taking the time, considering how you feel about the game.

This is primarily a reminder to RAM that the LM is not the problem ... its the price of the main currency: exotics.

I've decided to do barter whenever possible because the market prices are obscene and unlikely to change.

This is also a message to new players: Pay with exotics and use $$$ sparingly ... Don't drive the price up more.

I agree that gates are important but please don't make exotic scarcity worse than it already is.

Seems you got a bunch just recently at quite a good price. The exotics are not scarce, the time it takes to mine it is what is lacking.

Once a player gets established, there is little desire to mine and sell lots since they mostly want to mine for themselves and do other things besides mine for hours so someone else can build massively.

I know you have trouble mining, but most do not. It just comes down to the same basic human trait of wanting something done, but wanting someone else to put the time into making it happen.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby davh62 » Fri Jun 16, 2017 3:51 pm

RAM wrote:
Moneyman wrote::mrgreen: Thanks Wulf for taking the time, considering how you feel about the game.

This is primarily a reminder to RAM that the LM is not the problem ... its the price of the main currency: exotics.

I've decided to do barter whenever possible because the market prices are obscene and unlikely to change.

This is also a message to new players: Pay with exotics and use $$$ sparingly ... Don't drive the price up more.

I agree that gates are important but please don't make exotic scarcity worse than it already is.

Seems you got a bunch just recently at quite a good price. The exotics are not scarce, the time it takes to mine it is what is lacking.

Once a player gets established, there is little desire to mine and sell lots since they mostly want to mine for themselves and do other things besides mine for hours so someone else can build massively.

I know you have trouble mining, but most do not. It just comes down to the same basic human trait of wanting something done, but wanting someone else to put the time into making it happen.


well said ram, spot on dude :D
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Mooncrest » Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:11 pm

The prices paid for Class 1 to Class 10 ships is, presumably, based upon the Contract Board prices that NPCs will pay for Niobium and Tin. NPC prices for Niobium seem to vary between 19k and 22k per unit and the Tin price from 5k to 9k per unit. This allows the NPCs to make their ships at prices that Players cannot compete with.

As a dedicated ship builder I would love to be able to purchase Niobium and Tin at these prices, but I cannot. I do quite a bit of mining myself, but I do not, now, have enough asteroid fields to sevice my requirements. Therefore, I rely on other Players supplying me. This can be done in two ways: I will take Niobium and Tin directly in exchange for Ships and Modules, or I will purchase these maerials at my Starbases. I have set my maximum buying price at 100k per unit, which I think is a reasonable reward for new Players who cannot get he yields that more experienced Players can. I do have the support of some experienced Players who will sell me these materials for a lower amount, for which I am very grateful.

Unlike the basic four materials, Niobium, Tin and Promethium are only available from Players who are able and like to mine asteroids. This put a limit on the supply of these materials. These materials are in so much demand that the competition between Buyers for the limited supply is fierce. The situation is only going to get worse as the number of inhabited systems expands and the size of ships increases. The amount of Tin and Niobium used in building a ship doubles with each new class. Very soon it is going to be virtually impossible to build any quantity of ships at all.

Some Players may think that having NPC Pilots mine asteroids, or have some other way of automatically mining asteroids, would increase supply. They may well be correct, except that this is directly contrary to Jam's philosophy of how the game should be played. He seems to be adamant that the Players should play the game and not just sit back and watch as automata do all the work. Hence the limitations on NPC trading; which, incidently, does limit the effect of the Local Market's infinite demand: the NPCs may buy everything a Player takes to them, but a Player has to take it, which takes time, the only true currency of the game.

So, to answer your question.: Yes, the price that has to be paid for Niobium and Tin is as fair as it can be, given that supply is dependent upon Players mining the stuff and the demand for these materials being as high as it is. That is how Supply and Demand works, isn't it?
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Moneyman » Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:33 am

:mrgreen: True to my original prediction: This thread is not popular with respondents, except one, to this thread.

Thank you, all, for saying what was important for you to say. You misunderstand, this is for new players.

RAM, I'm always grateful for your help, I'm not the camel biting with in-gratitude.

Think about it. A new players's question is: How are ship prices determined?

And also, a new players's question is: Why are some materials more expensive than others?

I'm adding a link to A leg up index so that they have some answers.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Mooncrest » Sat Jun 17, 2017 11:55 am

Moneyman wrote::mrgreen: True to my original prediction: This thread is not popular with respondents, except one, to this thread.
I'm not sure you can say it is not popular. I think it is just not particularly relevant. We have to work with the economy we have. I would dearly love to sell a Leviathan at 43,127,426, but I would soon be bankrupt if I did. The actual amount of Tin and Niobium that goes into making a Leviathan without a Hyperdrive is 31,404 units of Niobium and 31,404 units of Tin. I pay 100k per unit, so this means I have to spend 6,280,800,000 just for these materials. If I mine the materials myself, I do not see why I should discount this cost. I whould be rewarded for the time spent mining just as any other player is.
Think about it. A new players's question is: How are ship prices determined?
I cannot say how others price their ships, but this is how I have calculated my ship prices.
  • Each Item that can be manufactured has a list of materials that are used in its manufacture Using this information and the number of items I can complete in 24 hours, I can calculate how much it costs to make one item, or mine one unit of minerals, or harvest one unit of food.
  • Using this data together with the cost of labour, I can calculate the cost of manufacturing each Module that goes up to make a ship.
  • I, then, apply a 30% mark up, which I think is a reasonable profit margin, given the volatility of the market. This results in the Sales Price of the Modules.
  • It is then a simple matter to add up the Sales Prices of the Modules included in the Ship to get the Sales Price of the Vessel ordered.

And also, a new players's question is: Why are some materials more expensive than others?
Different materials have different prices. I think it would be very strange if it were any other way. The peculiar economic circumstances that exist in the game mean that there is much disparity between the prices charged and paid at the NPC Star Stations and those prevailing at Player's Stock Markets.

The GM is a very peculiar animal indeed. Prices here can be very "optimistic", shall we say. I think that most were posted by new Players who did not understand that items placed on the GM are not sold until someone buys them and so, if the price is more than Players are prepared to pay, the items will remain unsold. So it is very important to set a price that is attractive to Players, or sell the items to Player's Stock markets.

New Player's must understand that the main economy is driven by the Players and Players will not trade with you unless your prices are acceptable to them.

It is not difficult to determine the "going rate" for a particular item. The Stock Market search results are initially sorted to put the best price, buying or selling, at the top of the list.

The tools to determine what is a good deal and to complete that deal are there in-game and are reasonably easy to use.


It is far easier for new Players to get cash now that it ever was. This is borne out by the fact that new Players are now able to purchase Seraphs, the biggest ship available when I was a new Player, in few days, rather than the weeks it took me to do the same.

The economy for all materials that can only be mined from asteroids are always going to attract a high price. This is because we have very few people who dedicate their playing time to asteroid mining and we have quite a few Players who use those materials for large scale manufacturing.
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Re: Are exotic material prices fair?

Postby Moneyman » Sat Jun 17, 2017 1:03 pm

:mrgreen: I've added a link to this thread's lead post to A leg up index's lead post.

Thanks for your additional information, Moon. New players, Moon is the guy to buy a ship from.
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