ASC - T2 Discussion

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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby RAM » Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:41 pm

Loke wrote:Image


Looks like a good starting point, but I think a 200 credit profit on Bas Med and 200 profit on graphene offsets the prices too much. I think a percent for profit is better instead of a blanket 200 credit profit. It might help things level out a bit more. It is hard for me to see that a Bas Med that takes one grain would be worth 500+ credits. I can see adding the daily production costs. I like that part. I think that is fair and realistic. Nice work.

I really do not see a need to take T1 pricing out of the discussion. I do not see it as a big issue right now. Most likely keep it as we have already laid out and address it at a much later date, but any adjustments right now could be considered with the T2 pricing since it is part of the costs.
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby Loke » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:20 pm

RAM wrote:
Loke wrote:Image


Looks like a good starting point, but I think a 200 credit profit on Bas Med and 200 profit on graphene offsets the prices too much.
The profit here is what you get for hauling it to i9,not a production profit, these are local market prices. In comparison carbon costs far less than 200 to produce at colony, so you get more than 600 hauling profit for that, so I think 200 for T2 isnt that much. Even alu at 400 i9 price, with production cost of 100 would get a 300 haul profit (carb and alu prices are not real numbers, its just to prove my point)
I think a percent for profit is better instead of a blanket 200 credit profit. It might help things level out a bit more. I used the same number for all for consitency/keep the same formula. And hauling it to i9 is the same amount of work, doesnt matter what you carry.
It is hard for me to see that a Bas Med that takes one grain would be worth 500+ credits. Thats because you only look at raw mat cost, for T2 the production cost is far higher, and with cheap grain as only raw mat, the cost of raw mat is not the main part of total cost. You need thousands of support structures, like power, uni, hospitals, offices, water etc. with its workers and all the food and T2s they consume (this is why I put 20 as T2 worker cost)
Robots only take 1 alu +0.1mech + 0.1 elec but is worth 880 in your list, is that any better? No, but still makes sense (imo) do to T2s high production cost.


I can see adding the daily production costs. I like that part. I think that is fair and realistic. Nice work.

If you have specific number suggestions to add/change in the formula I would be happy to reupload a new adjust list.


RAM wrote:I really do not see a need to take T1 pricing out of the discussion. I do not see it as a big issue right now. Most likely keep it as we have already laid out and address it at a much later date, but any adjustments right now could be considered with the T2 pricing since it is part of the costs.

I am not against discussing T1, but please can we keep to T2 as topic in this thread? So its easier to follow the discussion and come closer to a T2 package we can agree on. I am only saying the same thing Bosh did. Its when you start talking about too much at the same time it gets difficult to support your cause. I like how you kept one seperate thread for only discussing ship prices, I think that works good.

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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby RAM » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:36 pm

What is the * 1000 for in calculating the Price Formula?
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby Loke » Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:45 pm

RAM wrote:What is the * 1000 for in calculating the Price Formula?

Tertiary cost, I wanted to make them expensive, since colonies with high need of tertiary is difficult to balance (only 20% of colonists has a potential brain). You wil lack tertiary on a colony that tries to build a lot of T2 production from what I have seen. Need to build a lot of unis and otehr buildings to increase population, often doubling it.

I ended up with 1000 per tert worker, which seems high, but is what was needed in the formula to make T2 come close to carb price, where I think it belongs. I can change to a different number if you like

In the beginning the formula was far more complex and difficult to make it work. So I simplified it and adjusted it until prices were in a range they make sense, so I could present it as an idea here instead of giving up.

Example of how the formula works for cigars:
Production cost: (30workers * 20 cost_per_worker + 10 tertiary * 1000 tertiary_cost) / 50 daily produtction = 212
Raw mat cost: 2x 200 per ton tobacco = 400
Profit for hauling cigar to i9 = 200

Total: 212 + 400 + 200 = 812 per ton cigar at local market
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby BoshingTong » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:45 pm

Loke wrote:
RAM wrote:What is the * 1000 for in calculating the Price Formula?

Tertiary cost, I wanted to make them expensive, since colonies with high need of tertiary is difficult to balance (only 20% of colonists has a potential brain). You wil lack tertiary on a colony that tries to build a lot of T2 production from what I have seen. Need to build a lot of unis and otehr buildings to increase population, often doubling it.

I ended up with 1000 per tert worker, which seems high, but is what was needed in the formula to make T2 come close to carb price, where I think it belongs. I can change to a different number if you like

In the beginning, the formula was far more complex and difficult to make it work. So I simplified it and adjusted it until prices were in a range they make sense, so I could present it as an idea here instead of giving up.

Example of how the formula works for cigars:
Production cost: (30workers * 20 cost_per_worker + 10 tertiary * 1000 tertiary_cost) / 50 daily produtction = 212
Raw mat cost: 2x 200 per ton tobacco = 400
Profit for hauling cigar to i9 = 200

Total: 212 + 400 + 200 = 812 per ton cigar at local market


That is a good place to start. For me, I would sell at the source for -200 and from the Cube -160. That way I am only charging 40 for my fleet to bring it to Prime. I would make a profit and so would the last leg hauler.
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby RAM » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:23 pm

Loke wrote:I ended up with 1000 per tert worker, which seems high, but is what was needed in the formula to make T2 come close to carb price, where I think it belongs. I can change to a different number if you like


Some of that is already built in with salaries paid to tert workers. I do think that is kind of high to start with. Again, we can raise prices much easier then lower them.

What does 500 per tert look like?
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby LadyHawk » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:16 pm

I third the motion, proposed by Bosh and already seconded by Loke, that we move discussions of T1 prices to a separate thread.

We ARE very close to consensus on T2, but a whole new ball of wax has just been opened with discussions now about altering T1 prices of foods. I think its absolutely true and logic demands we address the relative scarcity of food compared to minerals and adjust prices accordingly, when food is required to the very sustenance of life while minerals are only a secondary, at best, concern.

Lets just make it a separate topic of debate so we can nail down the T2 part here and be done with it.
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby Loke » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:19 pm

RAM wrote:Some of that is already built in with salaries paid to tert workers. Salaries are part of the worker and tert cost in my sheet, as it is a cost.
I do think that is kind of high to start with. Did you know my main colony has 1.2m out of 3m working in offices just to reach high enough population for enough tertiary? And its a mainly farm and mining colony, only small amount of T2 production. A colony for T2 would need even more buildings for adding population, and those eat and drink too, while claiming a salary.

Again, we can raise prices much easier then lower them. True, most important is to get it added. I am not saying I have the best suggestion, just want to bring ideas to the table before voting

What does 500 per tert look like?

Image
Added a coloumn to show how much of the price is production cost.
Without tert worker cost the production cost for colony T2 would be 12 :lol:

BoshingTong wrote:That is a good place to start. For me, I would sell at the source for -200 and from the Cube -160. That way I am only charging 40 for my fleet to bring it to Prime. I would make a profit and so would the last leg hauler.

I like that, maybe add 40 to colony T2s as a cost of moving it to OSB? Its not really ready for hauling to i9 before its at a OSB
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby RAM » Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:21 am

Loke wrote:Image


These look much better to me as a place to start. I suspect we could average them to the nearest 25 to make them simpler, but not really needed. These would be base prices with profit at the LM added to them yet. Maybe Jam will even get more wild and add T2 to contracts too. I can ask.

I think starting here is better than flooding the economy with too many credits at once.

LadyHawk wrote:I third the motion, proposed by Bosh and already seconded by Loke, that we move discussions of T1 prices to a separate thread.


Since no one is really screaming about this, we can just ignore it and discuss it later as an overall economy issue that could be worked at slowly.

I will give it a few more days for others to chime in, and if no further discussions are needed, I will strt a poll with a suggested price list very close to what you are proposing. Something in me is making me want to round those numbers. :lol:

Thanks for all the work and input all. I think it will make a massive improvement.
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Re: ASC - T2 Discussion

Postby Loke » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:19 pm

Numbers are fun, so had to have another crank at it :D
T1 numbers are only to show what has been used in these calculations.
Image
-Decided to divide raw_mat_cost by 2, as I dont belive raw mats are worth more then half of i9 price when they are located at col/OSB.
-Increased worker cost to 30 (added repayment for buying colonists from UNCA), and tert decreased to 300. Sounds better to me, not sure why :?
-Increased hauling to i9 profit to 400, as I dont belive anyone would bother hauling for less. This is a little more than hauling profit for alu.
-Added 40 extra on col for the need to bring it to OSB before hauling to i9.

This does even out the differences between them, which I guess Ram doesnt like, as he compares only with raw mats. Evening out the prices migth increase diversity for traders, as possible profit is less different and a factor of how much are available on market starts to matter, when choosing which is the prefered trade item of the day. Similar to how Titanium got popular when carbon was in short supply and titanium was almost as profitable. Maybe we could get the same effect between several T2s, making the trade game more interesting.

All colony T2s are still below carbon so shouldnt be a danger of being the new carbon for the barons.

Robots got increased a bit, which worried me at first, but as it uses some T2 as raw mats it does
make sence.

Graphene got a bit lower, dicreasing the danger of graph being a new "exotic" carbon, that could increase the credits stream from UNCA (you are not the only one concerned about this Ram).

Feel free to round the numbers Ram :lol:

Edit: Added calculation for alu just for comparing, migth make it easier to see what each part of the formula does.
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