ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Discussion of in-game politics. Please post "In character" in here, IE as in your game persona or character. This is not for discussion ABOUT the game or about politics in the game, but actual political debate.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby RAM » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:08 pm

RAM wrote:My suggestion of doubling the SS prices of these ships is a starting point for discussion.


I am happy with a 50% increase in selling price and we can revisit this in 3 months like the T2 pricing. Does that sound acceptable? I will give a few more days of discussion, then start thread for a vote.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby Loke » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:10 pm

davh62 wrote: One current newbie has been in game 3 days & already has a class 8

Is that too fast? I were in a mammoth on my third day, and that was when we only had roids at vulcan and veritas. And colonies were just released, so only carbon trade was from Sol Inv. I stayed with the mammoth for a couple of weeks I think, before getting the guardian which was the biggest ship at the time (seraph was added just after this). I wasnt given anything, I earned it myself.

I have no idea what is the best speed a new player should be able to upgrade, just want to mention it is a big difference how fast new players progress and how much time they spend ingame, so counting days it takes to reach a certain ship class may not be the best way to find best solution.

I think its very difficult for us old players to understand how it is to be a new player. Yes it is possible to earn faster than when I started, but it is also more stuff to learn. It is easy to earn credits quickly, for those of us who knows "everything", because we know how to do it. How is it for a new player to earn credits while learning? I have no clue... In some ways it migth even be more difficult to upgrade quickly now, because there is so much to learn and maybe confusion, which slows down progression to.


Moneyman wrote::mrgreen: You do know that lowering n/t from $100k to 50k per tonne would also double the price, effectively.

I know, not going to happen. Then maybe more players carry a class 6-10 ship inventory like you and I and a few others.

Just start mining like mainiac :lol: and sell more, it will go down. Its the perfect time if you want to do this, it has never been more n/t on the market then it is currently.

LadyHawk wrote:To encourage interest in ship building as a profession, then, perhaps we should work on a new model for pricing of ships class 11 and up that has a significantly higher profit margin. (A class 10 Mammoth with HD is the widely recognized minimum needed to be able to experience the entire realm of possibilities here...therefore, I think that prices for that much should be left alone) How much profit in building class 11 ships and above, or what other kinds of incentives we might offer other potential professional ship builders to pursue that as a career is a subject for further investigation and discussion.

This migth be more of a input to Mooncrests new guild?

LadyHawk wrote:I think, as Senator Rhavenwing has already pointed out, the temptation for more seasoned PC's here to 'help out' new arrivals with outright gifts of new ships is a major contributing factor to the problems we face in selling ships for reasonable prices later on.

Yes, you and rhaven are on to something important here, i have always wondered if the giveaways are really a gift or if its actually stealing fun gametime from new players. This probably differs from case to case, and I am not accusing anyoneof doing something wrong. I know the intentions are noble, and maybe they are usually a good thing to, i am not sure. I just think it migth be better with a "give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime" mentality. We want all to stay here for a lifetime, rigth :D

LadyHawk wrote:I was a new arrival here much more recently than you two and I didn't think it was so easy to get up to that first Mammoth. Senator Fleas has even more recently invited some of his relatives here and closely observed their experience (OOC: Started alt characters to see what its like to be a noobie these days) and he maintains it is not too easy.

That is the evidence I base my concerns on.

Well done on trying to analyze the case, and not just jump to conclusion quickly.

RAM wrote:The ship pricing at the SS is based on Nio/Tin pricing of about 20k per ton of nio and about 8k per ton for tin. They have never been altered. Lower class ships do not take a lot, but they do take some and a LOT of time to build. Keeping the ships locked in price means that current prices are pretty much ignored. Not fair for any beginning ship builder.


Are you sure? I dont get the numbers to add up with so low nio/tin price. I have only looked at mammoth, it takes 980.95 nio and 980.95 tin = 1961,5 exotics
1961.5 * 100k price for exotics = 196.2 million
Which means a exotics price of 100k gives no profit. So 50k price for exotics would double the value of the exotics if used to make a mammoth, assuming nothing else in the manufacturing is worth counting.
I guess that should confirm it needs to be increased if a profit for shipbuilders should be possible for mammoth, if that is the reason behind price change. But ofc doesnt say anything about how it effects new players upgrade speed.


If you are going to do the price increase, you migth want to look at it in a more evenly way than just doubling the price for cl 6-10ships. That would create a big jump between class 5 and 6.
I took the prices for classes 1-10 from wiki and looked at how many times more it cost for 1 class higher. And it seems its around 3 times more expensive for each increase in class:
Image
class 2 is 2.5 time the price of class 1, class 3 is 3.6 times the price of class 2 and so on.

If you instead increased to 3.5 times as expensive per class for 6-10 you get a more even increase in price for each class:
Image
3.5 is just an example I used, can be anything. But going from 3 times to 3.5 times increase per class migth not hurt new players progress much at all?

I really dont know what I think is best ofr these ship prices, guess Ill just see what arguments are brougth to the table and vote for what seems to make sense when its time for voting.
Last edited by Loke on Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby Loke » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:30 pm

RAM wrote:
A player PC can climb through class 6-10 ships quite quickly

:lol: I just had to point that one out :twisted:
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby RAM » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:20 pm

Loke wrote:
RAM wrote:
A player PC can climb through class 6-10 ships quite quickly

:lol: I just had to point that one out :twisted:

Good catch. :)
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby davh62 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:52 am

I am not a politician so I'm going to duck out of this convo & just watch where she leads.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby LadyHawk » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:42 pm

Copied from Ram (I still can't figure out how to use the quote system here :-P)
The ship pricing at the SS is based on Nio/Tin pricing of about 20k per ton of nio and about 8k per ton for tin. Watch the SS contract prices paid for nio and tin. They have never been altered. Lower class ships do not take a lot, but they do take some and a LOT of time to build. Keeping the ships locked in price means that current prices are pretty much ignored. Not fair for any beginning ship builder.
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Based strictly on the mathematics involved, I see your point....and if you really think a potential new shipbuilder is going to be discouraged from embarking on that career because he can't compete with prices on Class 10's and under, perhaps your UNCA price increase is justified. I just doubt that someone who is really interested in shipbuilding as the major focus of their playtime is going to be so put off by having to look to class 11 and up for their profits.

Further, let's look at it from the perspective of new arrivals here. If we would just, as a society, make the decision to stop giving away so many ships in the lower classes, it would still take plenty of time for new arrivals to reach class 10. Once they do reach the point they can afford a Mammoth with HD, it opens up a whole new world of exploration they really can't get even a taste of beforehand. That is a GOOD thing for new citizen retention, not something we want to make it more difficult to attain.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby RAM » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:57 pm

LadyHawk wrote: I see your point....and if you really think a potential new shipbuilder is going to be discouraged from embarking on that career because he can't compete with prices on Class 10's and under, perhaps your UNCA price increase is justified.


I can still remember when the notice came out that the cl 6-10 ships were going to be uncommon in the SS. We tried to organize to build them. Each took a class. Within a week or so, we all quit. The time factor and effort to build a lower class ship with little capital compared to what you can do so many other ways...

Again, finding balance in the economy. The increase in price is not really that high. By the time a PC is in a cl 6 or higher, they are well on their way to making easy credits. I see no reason to raise the cl 1-5 ship costs. These are for the newest PC.

It also makes sense if something is rarer that it is more valuable.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby LadyHawk » Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:41 pm

I didn't know that bit of history, but it doesn't surprise me. I think it takes a person with some pretty special qualities to be willing to devote as much of their time as it takes here to build ships...at any price. I know I don't have any interest in doing so.

I really wish we could hear from Moon on the subject, as well as any PC's out there who think they would like to be shipbuilders as a primary profession.
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby davh62 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:16 pm

LadyHawk wrote:I didn't know that bit of history, but it doesn't surprise me. I think it takes a person with some pretty special qualities to be willing to devote as much of their time as it takes here to build ships...at any price. I know I don't have any interest in doing so.

I really wish we could hear from Moon on the subject, as well as any PC's out there who think they would like to be shipbuilders as a primary profession.



Been there & done it. Anything under class 10 is a complete waste of gameplay time & profit tbh.
It also take huge infrastructure to do it well to keep up with PC demands. It's far easier to buy the lower classes from the SY's. Damn I wasn't going to post again :D
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Re: ASC - Shipyard Price Discussion

Postby LadyHawk » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:26 pm

I'm glad you posted again Davh...you are way ahead of me in the realm of politics and I refuse to duck out LOL

I still wish we could hear from Moon and other parties interested in pursuing shipbuilding as a substantial part of their game play before we take this discussion much further...but in the meantime....

If Jam is planning to move away from a subscription basis and into more of a pay as you go plan, I'm guessing a major candidate for stuff you'd pay for along the way would be ship upgrades. Doesn't that, perhaps, make this whole discussion moot? If Jam is going to sell ships at his own set RL prices...are we going to try to compete with HIM ingame?

Maybe we should wait to see more details of his game sales plan before we mess with shipyard prices in the current model?
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