ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

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ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby RAM » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:07 am

There has been some discussion on setting up a Sector mining etiquette policy.

I would like to start a discussion how we view this idea and what we would see as a good structure to suggest.

We have an unofficial PC agreement, which is basically not to raid a lot of systems that have been named by someone else. We also suggest that any field found within 3 sectors of Apollo is open to all. These are done more out of respect, than demand.

What are our thoughts about setting up a more formal guideline and posting it on the Wiki?
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby LadyHawk » Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:53 pm

If I may provide just a little background, this discussion was moved from a thread it shouldn't have been in (and I apologize for my part in that, as well)

It originated with a thought on my part that, while we are waiting for the Black Sky relaunch, we might do what we can as a community to prepare for potentially hundreds of new players joining us. I suggested we might try to find ways to remove recurring problems that have caused large groups of players to leave the game in the past.

At the top of that list was the confusion about asteroid fields. Technically, they don't belong to anyone and that's what it says in the wiki. In practice, though, avid miners have often spent a great deal of time and effort looking for fields, grooming them and waiting for them to mature and the community, in support of that fact, has had a policy of not raiding other active players fields. My thought was that we might put some explanation of that informal policy in the wiki to avoid misunderstandings about it in the future.

I also suggested we look into other things that might help smooth the way for new players. In the past, we have had some controversy over price setting for ships...which on the surface doesn't look good but has been suggested as a way to avoid blocking the path for new ship builders from entering the field and not having to compete with players who have been building ships for years and have all the resources and systems already set up.

If we put our heads together, there are probably other things that have been recurring problems we might try to address while we are waiting for the update.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby davh62 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:24 am

Well said LH. For now I'm gonna sit on the fence to see how this thread pans out.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Mooncrest » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:09 pm

As Proprietor of Mooncrest Industries, the Galaxy's Premier Shipbuilding Company, I am responsible for the stable supply of raw materials. Of prime concern in this area is the supply of Tin, Niobium and, to a lesser extent, Promethium. These materials can only be sourced from asteroid fields. Mooncrest Industries has a number of asteroid fields that contain Angrite and/or Colombite asteroids. However, most of these fields also contain other types of asteroid. Therefore, we have to make sure that these 'junk' asteroids are removed and only Angrite and Colombite asteroids are allowed to grow in these fields. As can be imagined this takes some days to achieve, So, it is easy to imagine how much grief a raid on such a field would cause with the discoverer.

Shortly after the Fall, it became apparent that something would have to be done about Asteroid field raiding. The UNCA had no mechanism in place to allow discoverers to register a claim on an asteroid field, nor where they thinking of implementing one; they were too concerned with the work they were doing closer to home. So the Pilot Citizen (PC) Community came up with Guidelines to govern PC etiquette regarding asteroid fields. The Guidelines say that there is a Free Zone around the Apollo Sector (0,0,0) that is three sectors in diameter. In this Zone any asteroid field can be harvested by anyone.This Free Zone is a cube of 7 x 7 x 7 Sectors or 343 Sectors. Since then the Jump Gate Network has been expanded and any System that is linked by the Jump Gate Network to Sector 0,0,0 has been included in the Free Zone. This is potentially a lot of asteroid fields. Outside this Free Zone asteroids fields that have been discovered by someone else should not be harvested.

There have been infractions of the Guidelines, but the vast majority of PCs have followed them. Unfortunately the Guidelines were not published in the Wiki and when a suggestion was made that they should be, the question was raised as to whether the Guidelnes were still relevant. I believe that they are very relevant and their relevance will only increase as demand for Tin, Niobium and Promethium increases with the ever increasing demand for Jump Gate Parts and as new classes of ships gobble up more and more Tin and Niobium.

There is, however, a new concern to think about. What do we do with the asteroid fields outside the Free Zone that have been discovered by PCs that are no longer active. The main problem is are they permanently inactive or are they .just taking a sabbatical and will be active again in the future. We also have the problem of whether they are inactive at all. There are a number of PCs who are not using the comms channels for some reason, so we do not know if they are active or not.

My first thoughts on this is: keep the Guidelines as they are, but give the MINERS Guild the responsibility of harvesting the fields of inactive PCs. This gives the MINERS Guild a great responsibility, but there are some very experienced players who are members and they should be able to come to a consensus on which PCs are inactive. They should also be able to control the distribution of the material mined from these fields in a responsible manner for the benefit of the community as a whole.

We must remember that the Galaxy is big and we have only explored a minuscule portion of it. There are plenty of asteroid fields in the Free Zone for new PCs to home their mining skills on before they go out into Deep Space and find their own fields. I know that some PCs are not concerned that their asteroid fields are harvested by others, but I think that more will be. If you are not concerned about this, then let the MINERS Guild know and they can organise the harvesting of your fields.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Loke » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:50 pm

The main reason I asked if the rules/guidelines should still be followed, was this part of Moons suggestion for what to put in the wiki:
All other Astroid Fields in any already discovered System should be left for the Discoverer to harvest

That leaves thousands of fields in systems discovered by players that quit years ago, and dont return, "illegal" to use.

Why do I care? Well, as most old players I have been raided several times and had to find ways to ensure I kept enough fields unraided to grow. Especially back when there was no fields with Niobite only (that was implemented in one of the resets) and we had to clean up all the junk roids all the time. Now that we have fields with only the good roids, its a waste of time mining the fields with junk in them.
But with the resets (and other things) it made it possible for me to log fields in systems I was not the discoverer but could see that the discoverer have been inactive. I now have logged a lot of sytems that havent been visited by anyone but me for the past 3 years (if I hadnt visited the roids would be small). So with logged fields from many different discoverers I am safe from being badly raided. I doubt that any of that is breaking the rules, the few times inactive players have come back to any of those fields, they have come back to nicely grown and groomed fields. In most cases it was players that didnt even mine when they were active anyway.

I can do this because I have plenty of knowledge to know how not to hurt players that could come back to mine it later.
The problem as I see it is that new players cant know this, and therefor som guidelines is good. But shouldnt the same guidelines apply to us older players, just to be fair? Even though we know how to avoid the issue that created the need for them in the first place?

I do admit to have broken the rules more for the last 6-7 months (not 1 year as I wrote in the other thread). I needed more fields when I was mining a lot to supply the initial stocks to the Nio Tin Market. So I searched out to find fields that was discovered in the summer of 2015 (after the last reset), which means I had not groomed those myself. This was fields that hadnt been mined for over 2 years and I was pretty sure the player who discovered them had been inactive for the same amount of time. Those fields give around 6k per roid, and the angrites fill my mining Lev that has 211k storage, so if those grow more it will only be vasted anyway (unless we get a cl 16 ship soon).
Should I not have done that? Should I stop? I am only asking, not stating what I think is rigth, I will do what the community seems to agree upon. I didnt want to start another discussion about this, but the way I asked I should know it was unavoidable. Sorry.

How about fields in red zone? Do the rules apply there to?

Is there a risk that rules become demotivating to miners? It is very easy to just buy instead of going out minig yourself.


Edit: Thank you LH and Moon for very good arguments. Helps me a lot.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Mooncrest » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:03 pm

Loke wrote:The problem as I see it is that new players cant know this, and therefor som guidelines is good. But shouldnt the same guidelines apply to us older players, just to be fair? Even though we know how to avoid the issue that created the need for them in the first place?

This is the dilemma that I think passing responsibility to the MINERS Guild will solve. We do need to mine the fields of inactive PCs, especially those we think will not resume activity. In this way the new PCs who want to mine will be directed to the fields outside the Free Zone where the more experienced PCs have decided it is OK to mine. I think this will show that there is one set of Guideline for all. So my suggestion for you, Loke, is join MINERS guild, if you have not already done so.

I had envisioned that the materials mined in these fields would be used mainly to supply Jump Gate parts builders at very low prices as this use directly benefits the whole community. However, because there seems to be a move to lower the price of Niobium and Tin, selling this material at that price could be a useful tool for that objective as well.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Wulf » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:24 pm

Mooncrest wrote:
Loke wrote:The problem as I see it is that new players cant know this, and therefor som guidelines is good. But shouldnt the same guidelines apply to us older players, just to be fair? Even though we know how to avoid the issue that created the need for them in the first place?

This is the dilemma that I think passing responsibility to the MINERS Guild will solve. We do need to mine the fields of inactive PCs, especially those we think will not resume activity. In this way the new PCs who want to mine will be directed to the fields outside the Free Zone where the more experienced PCs have decided it is OK to mine. I think this will show that there is one set of Guideline for all. So my suggestion for you, Loke, is join MINERS guild, if you have not already done so.

I had envisioned that the materials mined in these fields would be used mainly to supply Jump Gate parts builders at very low prices as this use directly benefits the whole community. However, because there seems to be a move to lower the price of Niobium and Tin, selling this material at that price could be a useful tool for that objective as well.


just a though, like the phone 'do not call' list. anyone interested in stating they are active (or semi) and 'please do not mine my fields' places there name on the miners site. one side active 'do not farm plz' and another with known inactive players 'open to mine' with the claim that if at any time a player returns and wants their mining 'rights' restored then they are placed on the do not mine list.. with an annual renewal via in game message. it would be important to remind players that no one owns a system so this is a courtesy site and no real rights are give or taken.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby LadyHawk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:41 pm

Thanks to all for posting here and sharing your thoughts!

I understand completely, Loke, your concern about all those nice, ripe fields originally discovered by players who have now gone inactive for years. Those resources should not be consigned to waste, and yet it creates the dilemma...how do new players know if the fields belong to an active player or not.

I like the idea Moon proposed, about giving Miner's Guild the authority to decide if a player is inactive or not and using their harvests of those determined inactive to supply the community. I am just a tad nervous, tho, as being a member of the Miner's Guild myself I wouldn't want to accept that kind of authority without at least a few other very experienced players for counsel. And, at this point, there are so many very old, very ripe fields belonging to very inactive players...I'm not so sure the Miner's Guild members still active would be able to get to them all.

Wulf's suggestion for a registry would seem a lot easier to implement...maybe as a sticky at the top of the forum? Players would have to take the responsibility for registering their fields as 'active player-do not mine'
or 'active player but ok to mine'. Inactive members could perhaps be placed on the inactive list by active membership if they don't reply to a request to register and re-register every calendar year?

Either way, I still think some kind of explanation of the community etiquette in the wiki would be helpful.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby RAM » Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:16 am

LadyHawk wrote:I still think some kind of explanation of the community etiquette in the wiki would be helpful.


Etiquette is much different then rules, and a lot harder to spell.

I think a list of inactive would be good, but I would be weary of posting a list of active names. It makes them more targets if someone does decide to lash out.

There are 329 searchable Asteroid Fields accessible and sortable in the database.

Only the first 2 rings have been charted. If we actually charted Ring three, we would add about 200% more fields, around 1000. So we already have a pretty big base for open fields. This could easily be expanded to include Ring 4 or Ring 5. Each ring greatly increases the systems and fields. Or we can just state that anything within 5 sectors of Apollo is considered no man's land. Outside of that, we just ask people to be respectful of other's fields. If they do not know the person is inactive, ask or watch.

All this is just etiquette and courtesy. On the flip side, we have to also not go off on others who do mine our "secret" fields. There are really no rules that say they can not. If they find a few, I doubt they can find many from one PC. If they do, then the community can come together and share some fields with that person who feels raided.

Sometimes the ownership we have of Apollo is a good thing. We have to remember that it can be a double edged sword too. While I see no one being overcontrolling or thinking they control more than what they do, we have to remember that the Creator has given us an overabundance of so much. It allows us to be generous at little cost, besides time. As with everything else this community does, if one is burdened, the rest will step up and in to share the load. This is our true strength.

So how do we write that all up in a etiquette thing? I have no idea. :lol:
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby davh62 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:32 am

I think a list of inactive would be good, but I would be weary of posting a list of active names. It makes them more targets if someone does decide to lash out.
Indeedy!

Please also consider that some names deemed "Inactive" may actually be ALTS. I use several as a way to keep my fields a little more protected.

I'm not liking any organisation in game wielding authority to say who can mine what. Also dictates a gameplay style that was never intended within the game. The game has no such rules in game & thus shouldn't be applied in the meta game.

I can't actually belief I just said that! Considering my fields are hit all the time. Well more than once have I spoke to newer players about hitting fields. Thier responses were not positive! The game is open world exploration, we cannot dictate where players go & what they do.

Anyhow post up what you will but I will mine wherever I want.
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