ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Wulf » Mon Jan 15, 2018 1:41 pm

yes it's a pity that mining is a sore point, when you wait for a field to ripen for over a year (because game mechanics is poor when it comes to asteroid growth) it leaves lots of hard feelings. I would have love to hire contact killers for the ones that have hit my fields, they are usually rude and arrogant.
However I like the idea of overall thread, mining guidelines for happy mining game experience.
unless asteroids grow much faster (for that maximized yield feel)

the psychology hit, from raiders, is terrible. I can't count how often asteroid raiding has been the straw that sent a player away anything that helps that is great.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby davh62 » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:09 pm

Wulf wrote:yes it's a pity that mining is a sore point, when you wait for a field to ripen for over a year (because game mechanics is poor when it comes to asteroid growth) it leaves lots of hard feelings. I would have love to hire contact killers for the ones that have hit my fields, they are usually rude and arrogant.
However I like the idea of overall thread, mining guidelines for happy mining game experience.
unless asteroids grow much faster (for that maximized yield feel)

the psychology hit, from raiders, is terrible. I can't count how often asteroid raiding has been the straw that sent a player away anything that helps that is great.


Ignorance is bliss :D
It's when it's mentioned in comms in game that hurts though.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Zaq » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:45 pm

From a new player's perspective: What I find hard to understand is that asteroids sitting in undiscovered systems have zero growth. Players would be less inclined to "attack" a current player's ripened field if the newly discovered fields are worthwhile to mine. You just traveled 50k light years with no named systems anywhere on the map and there is nothing to mine and have reasonable results??? Makes no sense to me.

I understand that this is a coding issue, not an in game etiquette issue, but I think that it would solve (mostly - there are still various "personalities" that will play the game...) the raiding issues. Faster growing fields would also be a plus.

As far as etiquette, I do pay attention to the discoverer of a system, but understand that there are alts that don't provide a clue. If in doubt, I simply pass on the field. I, also, only check out named systems if they use the old naming method, even though I don't have a clue as to when it changed.

Bottom line? You can't enforce etiquette. It's a social experiment and Jam's no asteroid ownership makes it what it is. If you like the idea of social experimenting, try ATITD. It's not space oriented but, also a single developer and has been around since 2001 or so (restarts with a new tale every 18-36 months). Very much community oriented with no combat - well, except for social or in game political verbal combat... That's been my goto when I tire of hack n' slash or other "normal" games - very much like what Ascent may end up being for me (if it survives...)
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Wulf » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:39 pm

davh62 wrote:
Wulf wrote:yes it's a pity that mining is a sore point, when you wait for a field to ripen for over a year (because game mechanics is poor when it comes to asteroid growth) it leaves lots of hard feelings. I would have love to hire contact killers for the ones that have hit my fields, they are usually rude and arrogant.
However I like the idea of overall thread, mining guidelines for happy mining game experience.
unless asteroids grow much faster (for that maximized yield feel)

the psychology hit, from raiders, is terrible. I can't count how often asteroid raiding has been the straw that sent a player away anything that helps that is great.


Ignorance is bliss :D
It's when it's mentioned in comms in game that hurts though.



this is not ignorance and i resent that comment. If you want names and dates i could hit about 5 i know off right off the top. and that is only what i know without looking about. thats 5 players that were hard core supporters that left.
Last edited by Wulf on Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Wulf » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:40 pm

Zaq wrote:From a new player's perspective: What I find hard to understand is that asteroids sitting in undiscovered systems have zero growth. Players would be less inclined to "attack" a current player's ripened field if the newly discovered fields are worthwhile to mine. You just traveled 50k light years with no named systems anywhere on the map and there is nothing to mine and have reasonable results??? Makes no sense to me.

I understand that this is a coding issue, not an in game etiquette issue, but I think that it would solve (mostly - there are still various "personalities" that will play the game...) the raiding issues. Faster growing fields would also be a plus.

As far as etiquette, I do pay attention to the discoverer of a system, but understand that there are alts that don't provide a clue. If in doubt, I simply pass on the field. I, also, only check out named systems if they use the old naming method, even though I don't have a clue as to when it changed.

Bottom line? You can't enforce etiquette. It's a social experiment and Jam's no asteroid ownership makes it what it is. If you like the idea of social experimenting, try ATITD. It's not space oriented but, also a single developer and has been around since 2001 or so (restarts with a new tale every 18-36 months). Very much community oriented with no combat - well, except for social or in game political verbal combat... That's been my goto when I tire of hack n' slash or other "normal" games - very much like what Ascent may end up being for me (if it survives...)


good post thank you for commenting
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby LadyHawk » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:40 am

I have used the term 'etiquette' rather than rules not to demonstrate my superiority in spelling skills (LOL) but to emphasize the difference between rules, which can somehow be enforced, and etiquette, which is more a generally expected sign of politeness to the community one is surrounded by, rather than something enforceable.

I see where you're coming from, Ram, in terms of how difficult it might be to maintain an 'active' list. I guess I thought it could be very much simplified by putting it on the player to make it clear they are active and don't want their fields raided....anybody not heard from, asking to be put on the list, would fall into the inactive or don't care about my fields being mined category.

Regardless, whether we incorporate that control step into it or not, I still think it would be a good idea to include in the wiki an explanation of that etiquette so new players understand up front and are not blasted or confused later on. I still think most new players who are going to make a home here, where the philosophy differs so greatly from Eve. etc...would be happy to embrace the community etiquette once they understand it.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Mooncrest » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:44 am

In reality, there are two types of asteroid field that most PCs are concerned about:
  • Asteroid fields that contain only Angrite and/or Colombite asteroids. I'll call them Pure Fields
  • Asteroid fields that contain Angrite and/or Colombite, but also have other asteroid types in them. I'll call these fields Mixed Fields
All other fields are of little concern because Niobium, Tin and Promethium are much needed materials and the Pure and Mixed Fields are the only sources.

Naturally the Pure Fields do not take much maintenance; they are just left to grow until the Discoverer decides to harvest them. Mixed fields are, however, a different proposition. What the Discoverer likes to do is clear out all the 'junk' asteroids to leave only Angrite and/ir Colombite asteroids and then let them grow. This process can take some time, because the asteroids that spawn have a randomly determined type.

So, let us consider what is likely to happen if PCs are allowed to harvest any field that they want to. It should be obvious that no Discoverer is going to spend any time cleaning out 'junk' 'roids. What is the point if someone else can come along and take the 'good' 'roids? So, overall yield of Tin, Niobium and Promethium drops. Also, the 'good' 'roids cannot be left to grow for months because someone else will no doubt come along at some time and harvest them. So, yield drops even more.

Soon, of course the Mixed Fields will become totally unproductive because the 'good' 'roids have all turned into 'junk' 'roids. So, this leaves the burden of fulfilling demand for Niobium, Tin and Promethium to the Pure Fields. However, these fields are being harvest while the 'roids are still small; they cannot be left for someone else to mine, can they?

So, in a very short time, production of some vital materials falls to rock bottom. This will affect the construction of Jump Gates; lack of materials to make coils. It wil also affect the building of Starships; I certainly will not be making many ships for other PCs, because it could take me weeks to gather the materials requires. Do not forget a Class 15 Leviathan takes about 80,000 units of Niobium and Tin and the Class 15 will double that. That is a lot of 'roids to harvest if yields are only in the low hundreds.

This is why we need to instil this etiquette into the community. There will always be some who ignore it; that is human nature, but as long as the vast majority support this we should be able to secure supplies of these vital materials.

I take on board Zaq's comment on new asteroid fields. There is, however, good reasoning behind this . If the asteroids were larger then there would be a frenzy to find new fields and not nurture existing ones; why bother waiting when you can find a ready-made field?

Wulf's point of the rate of accretion of asteroids will always be with us, I think; it seems the creator is not being persuaded by Wulf's argument.

Finally, what do we do with the Red Zone? I think that the Red Zone should be included in the Free Zone. PCs who have set up there are aware of the fact that they can be in conflict with other PCs, so it seems logical that the first conflicts should be over mineral rights.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby davh62 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:39 pm

Wulf wrote:
davh62 wrote:
Wulf wrote:yes it's a pity that mining is a sore point, when you wait for a field to ripen for over a year (because game mechanics is poor when it comes to asteroid growth) it leaves lots of hard feelings. I would have love to hire contact killers for the ones that have hit my fields, they are usually rude and arrogant.
However I like the idea of overall thread, mining guidelines for happy mining game experience.
unless asteroids grow much faster (for that maximized yield feel)

the psychology hit, from raiders, is terrible. I can't count how often asteroid raiding has been the straw that sent a player away anything that helps that is great.


Ignorance is bliss :D
It's when it's mentioned in comms in game that hurts though.



this is not ignorance and i resent that comment. If you want names and dates i could hit about 5 i know off right off the top. and that is only what i know without looking about. thats 5 players that were hard core supporters that left.



You misunderstand. Ignorance in this context meaning if you can't see somebody doing it, it isn't hurting directly. Stand down horse.
With regard to hardcore players leaving. You have to adapt to conquer adversity. I have had to do it to overcome the raiders & so have others. Unfortunately vet players are targeted as they are seen as rich pickings due to length of service. Thus it's perceived that their fields are old.
Last edited by davh62 on Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby davh62 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:52 pm

Mooncrest wrote:In reality, there are two types of asteroid field that most PCs are concerned about:
  • Asteroid fields that contain only Angrite and/or Colombite asteroids. I'll call them Pure Fields
  • Asteroid fields that contain Angrite and/or Colombite, but also have other asteroid types in them. I'll call these fields Mixed Fields
All other fields are of little concern because Niobium, Tin and Promethium are much needed materials and the Pure and Mixed Fields are the only sources.

Naturally the Pure Fields do not take much maintenance; they are just left to grow until the Discoverer decides to harvest them. Mixed fields are, however, a different proposition. What the Discoverer likes to do is clear out all the 'junk' asteroids to leave only Angrite and/ir Colombite asteroids and then let them grow. This process can take some time, because the asteroids that spawn have a randomly determined type.

So, let us consider what is likely to happen if PCs are allowed to harvest any field that they want to. It should be obvious that no Discoverer is going to spend any time cleaning out 'junk' 'roids. What is the point if someone else can come along and take the 'good' 'roids? So, overall yield of Tin, Niobium and Promethium drops. Also, the 'good' 'roids cannot be left to grow for months because someone else will no doubt come along at some time and harvest them. So, yield drops even more.

Soon, of course the Mixed Fields will become totally unproductive because the 'good' 'roids have all turned into 'junk' 'roids. So, this leaves the burden of fulfilling demand for Niobium, Tin and Promethium to the Pure Fields. However, these fields are being harvest while the 'roids are still small; they cannot be left for someone else to mine, can they?

So, in a very short time, production of some vital materials falls to rock bottom. This will affect the construction of Jump Gates; lack of materials to make coils. It wil also affect the building of Starships; I certainly will not be making many ships for other PCs, because it could take me weeks to gather the materials requires. Do not forget a Class 15 Leviathan takes about 80,000 units of Niobium and Tin and the Class 15 will double that. That is a lot of 'roids to harvest if yields are only in the low hundreds.

This is why we need to instil this etiquette into the community. There will always be some who ignore it; that is human nature, but as long as the vast majority support this we should be able to secure supplies of these vital materials.

I take on board Zaq's comment on new asteroid fields. There is, however, good reasoning behind this . If the asteroids were larger then there would be a frenzy to find new fields and not nurture existing ones; why bother waiting when you can find a ready-made field?

Wulf's point of the rate of accretion of asteroids will always be with us, I think; it seems the creator is not being persuaded by Wulf's argument.

Finally, what do we do with the Red Zone? I think that the Red Zone should be included in the Free Zone. PCs who have set up there are aware of the fact that they can be in conflict with other PCs, so it seems logical that the first conflicts should be over mineral rights.


Moon I think you could argue that Ure & Aut fields are also now very valuable in terms LM pricing.
Please understand that I agree in principle that there should be an "honour system". Unfortunately there is always a dark element that will disrupt. RE Team Prom years ago.
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Re: ASC - Mining etiquette guidelines

Postby Mooncrest » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:28 pm

davh62 wrote:Moon I think you could argue that Ure & Aut fields are also now very valuable in terms LM pricing.
Please understand that I agree in principle that there should be an "honour system". Unfortunately there is always a dark element that will disrupt. RE Team Prom years ago.

I do agree thatin monetary terms, Autunite, Chrondrite and Urelite have become more valuable because the minerals they contain now have infinite demand at LMs at very good prices. In fact, because of the greater yield of Magnesium and Uranium, I think these two minerals will fetch more credits per roid than Angrite and Colombite.

I also recognise that there will always be an element in any community that cannot behave in a manner that creates peace and harmony. Indeed we must remember that most of our new PCs will have migrated here from an environment where conflict is the norm. It must be difficult for them to accept that we are a peaceful, co-operative community. However, we can use the publication of these etiquette guidelines not only to set them put but, also, to explain the reasons for them. I am sure that the new PCs will accept and follow them.

There are, after all, hundreds of fields in the Free Zone and millions more to be discovered in the rest of the Galaxy. New PCs need credits and, now that Magnesium and Uranium have a demand at Local Markets, many more asteroid fields in the Free Zone have become viable opportunities for profit. Hopefully this will be enough for them to get to a point where their own asteroid fields have become mature enough to harvest.

We are in a different place from when the Prom Team were operating. There are many more Jump Gates and many more explored systems in the Asteroid Field database. There really is no need to raid the asteroid fields other PCs have discovered.
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