ASC - Local Market Prices

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ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby RAM » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:47 pm

We can use this thread to discuss Local Market pricing.
Which ones seem high?
Which one seems low?

If you think some needs raised, which ones do you think should be lowered to balance out the markets so we do not create inflation?

I think we have a lot of time to discuss this. The UNCA is int he middle of a massive project they are just calling TMG. It may be a while before we can get any adjustments, but I am happy to discuss this.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby Loke » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:42 pm

T2 addition to LMs was a good thing, but with current prices I dont see any reason to bother selling T2 to LMs, its just not worth it do to low production. As you rarely have more than one shipload of T2, its more efficient to just haul several T1 loads in less time and earn more. So T2 in LMs are annoying atm, as its just more to scroll through to find what you want to sell. And thats a shame when T2 could be something in between T1 and magnesium and uranium, making the trade and economy gameplay more diverse and interesting.

T2 production chain is more interesting and challenging than keep building more mines for mass production. I cant be the only one that is tired of building more and more carbon mines??

I suggest bumping all T2 by increasing current hauling profit with 500, making these new T2 base prices:
Image
Same formula and table as I used last time we discussed this.

That actually puts robots just above graph, Which I think is correct since they use other T2s as raw mat, making them kind of a T3.

With higher prices and LM price changes every 15min it is actually worth looking for a LM currently buying at highest price. Like we currently have with mag and uranium, and that did make the hauling to LM somewhat more interesting for me.
Higher prices also gives some economical room for trading T2 between players at fair prices, which I think is painfully needed. Currently we are only trading mineable materials, T1 and T2 goes at give away prices that help kill the economical gameplay.



I also suggest decreasing carbon base price another 25 credit at the same time. That will decrease the total flow of credits into player economy, and maybe help gather support for my suggestion here from the credit haters. I dont like a decrease in carbon price and dont see it as necessary, but it is a compromise I am willing to do to finally make T2 worth the effort.

I was able to increase graph prodution to 13 per factory with 12 upgrades and 60% morale, thats almost 1% of the production my carbon mines. Im not at all worried that mass T2 production making people frich fasterl, massive production just isnt doable, and that supports my point of T2 needs to be a step above T1 in price.


If T2s get increassed enough I think it will become like a "rare haul" that everyone looks for, and quickly runs out of, and then you have T1 for "mass hauling". To me thats a nice improvement of the game.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby Loke » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:08 pm

RAM wrote:We can use this thread to discuss Local Market pricing.
If you think some needs raised, which ones do you think should be lowered to balance out the markets so we do not create inflation?
You have used this argument several times before in LM price discussions, and I still say its false. We can only carry max cargo space of our ships, so only thing that matters is what is the price of the most profitable item you have a lot of to haul? Increasing the price of one item does not mean you need to decrease another equally, thats not what affects how much we earn. Nothing is linked together like that.

I think we have a lot of time to discuss this. The UNCA is int he middle of a massive project they are just calling TMG. It may be a while before we can get any adjustments, but I am happy to discuss this.

Im in no hurry, I think its good that the suggestions and discussion is open for some time, as maybe not everyone are visiting here on a weekly bases. Givcing all a chance to give their thougths.

Which ones seem high?
Did alu get increased last time? Its the same as titanium now it seems. Alu is a lot more common and needs less workers etc than titanium, makes little sense its worth as much as titanium. I suggest lowering it to 100 below titanium.

Which one seems low?
All food. Its more rare than mineral. Its also one of few things in game we need an consume at colonies and OSBs, so if more is sold to LMs I think it would increase the value of food and at the same time add a cost to food consumtion. Its kind of weird that our colonies and OSBs with millions of people basicaly have no operational cost. Expensive food migrth improve on that.

Small chance of improve player to player food trades as well. Possible new career to be a food supplier? I have tried doing that before but not a big market currently with too much cheap food every where.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby RAM » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:35 pm

Here are the base prices we implemented:
Image

Aluminium is 50 lower than titanium. I do not think raising or lowering will affect much since most produce carbon.

I think T2 has brought variety. This is what I was hoping for. I did not see them replacing anything, but a way for someone to create and sell if they choose. It gets boring just building carbon harvesters. Now, we can do a variety of things and still do well. This is why I was wanting to ease carbon prices down some. High carbon pries disincentives many from doing anything else. By bringing some balance, it allows us to diversify some. While we may not make as much with other things, we can now justify the time to do it.

I think of the time it took to make a massive carbon colony. We often forget the time we have already invested. It takes about that same amount of time, maybe less, to make a massive graphene OSB. I did it and found it to be easier since I just had to make the structures and not worry about Mine offices and tert trained folks. I only stopped because I am waiting to see if OSB hospitals get sorted and wanted to see how my production was affected. Again, all I had to do was build graphene factories and Power plants. No other support buildings.

Now on to food. I would love to see food prices be in line with minerals. They are much more rare, but still easily found and produced.

Ultimately all the adjustment of prices still does not remove the fact that we have to haul everything to the LM. After a while and enlarged bank account, it really doesn't matter long term if we flucuate these prices some. Credits become more abundant than anything.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby Loke » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:04 pm

RAM wrote:
Aluminium is 50 lower than titanium. I do not think raising or lowering will affect much since most produce carbon.Ok. Yeah alu is not important, but seems a bit wrong that its so close to titanium

I think T2 has brought variety. This is what I was hoping for. I did not see them replacing anything, but a way for someone to create and sell if they choose. It gets boring just building carbon harvesters. Now, we can do a variety of things and still do well. This is why I was wanting to ease carbon prices down some. High carbon pries disincentives many from doing anything else. By bringing some balance, it allows us to diversify some. While we may not make as much with other things, we can now justify the time to do it.
Exactly what I ment, we want exactly the same. You just explained it better. :D
But I disagree the prices are high enough for T2 to be justified the time and effort yet. So personally Im still stuck with carbon until T2 is increased in price (and carbon a little down)


I think of the time it took to make a massive carbon colony. We often forget the time we have already invested. It takes about that same amount of time, maybe less, to make a massive graphene OSB. No, I find it more time consuming to build a massive OSB than colony. OSBs gets really slow after 30k modules. Building the 50k WH modules took forever for me. Certainly took longer to build than the 21m tons of carbon producing colony below it, which is a dome colony on no atmo planet. Ill admigth I had a big exisiting infrastructure to support the building of the colony and knew exactly how to build it, which helped a lot. But placing building on colony is so much faster than modules on OSB for me.
I did it and found it to be easier since I just had to make the structures and not worry about Mine offices and tert trained folks. True, there is less balancing and other infrastructure needed, making it a simpler I only stopped because I am waiting to see if OSB hospitals get sorted and wanted to see how my production was affected. I dont have a hospital bug, have 60% morale and production is still shit. No way of increasing except researching a lot of upgradesAgain, all I had to do was build graphene factories and Power plants. No other support buildings.I see your point, but somehow I just dont see how it can be worth my time to build OSB factories and colony T2s vs more carbon mines :roll: Am I missing something?

Now on to food. I would love to see food prices be in line with minerals. They are much more rare, but still easily found and produced. Agreed, in line with minerals would be good.


Edit:
Had to do the calculation for why I dont find T2 worth it.

Image
Base and base +40% is what the LM price will be between.
Number of production buildings * daily prod per building = Total prod per day for the colony/OSB
Lev loads is the number of 200k cargo space Levs the total prod per day will fill
Total value if sold to LM at price =base +40% is the value of total daily production sold at highest possible LM price.

Above you can see how many buildings are needed to produce a daily value of 315m credits for each item. I took the highest and lowest of each type (T2 OSB, T1 minerals, T2 colony and T1 food).

A OSB with 30k mech factories or even a 20k factories for graph is a massive OSB that takes a lot of time to build.
You can build a rather small iron colony and produce the same value per day with only 1500 iron mines. But that means a lot more hauling, so I guess those are comperable.
But if we compare with carbon its about the same amount of hauling, and you only need a tiny colony with 282 mines. That is so much easier and quicker to build. Why go OSB T2??
Even a meat colony of 1400 farms is way faster to earn 315m. Discalimer: I could be wrong of the 400 daily prod per building for food.
Last type is colony T2, has anyone tried balancing teritary population on a colony with 6450 cigar factories? Think its pretty challenging.

Thats whats needed for a theoratical max daily profit of 315 million. Which isnt a lot for a established player who can haul cheap carbon and earn 5 billions in just 15min.

So unfortunatley I cant see why I should produce T2.
Last edited by Loke on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby RAM » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:43 pm

Loke wrote:OSBs gets really slow after 30k modules. Building the 50k WH modules took forever for me.


I moved most of my graphene factories over 100 tiles on the OSB using an Orbital Grav Anchor. They do not render unless I fly out to them. Keep it running fast and still get the production.

I agree that we do still need to tweak. I think we all knew it going in. I did, anyway. Adding what we did is not easy to guess the outcomes. Easy to miss or overlook. One reason why I wanted to go slow and start low. We can go up and not make anyone upset.

I would have no issue with tweaking up most, if not all T2 base by 25%. I think dropping carbon slightly (-25 credits a ton)as we do it makes sense too. Slow change, but allows us to absorb it at a slow rate.

What I am really trying to focus on is fun. What will make it ultimately more fun and enjoyable to play. If bumping T2 up does, then I am all for it. I am not seeing a massive influx into the economy from them now. This was my biggest concern. I think we do have a lot of room to work.

Loke, could you tell me what OSB you are getting 60% hospital and you are producing Graphene. I would like to fly out and take a look at the numbers. I do not doubt you at all, just would like to see some hard numbers to analyze a bit myself. It will help me know how much bigger I want to build my Graphene OSB. Mine is Tigs Treehouse in M3. Warp there then fly out to see 75% of my structures.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby Loke » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:16 pm

RAM wrote:Loke, could you tell me what OSB you are getting 60% hospital and you are producing Graphene.

Hangover in New Horizon. Bumped it up to 13 per factory now with 12 upgrades.

You migth want to add a npc with class 17PQ to trade between your OSB and a colony with too many hospitals (like Fra in Primo Spe). That solved the one OSB I had that didnt get full hospital, it got like 12% coverage when I had a mammth with cl13PQ, so added a boomerang with 2 cl 13PQs, changed nothing. Then added a lev with cl17PQ and got full hospital same as my other OSBs.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby RAM » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:11 am

Loke wrote:
RAM wrote:Loke, could you tell me what OSB you are getting 60% hospital and you are producing Graphene.

Hangover in New Horizon. Bumped it up to 13 per factory now with 12 upgrades.

You migth want to add a npc with class 17PQ to trade between your OSB and a colony with too many hospitals (like Fra in Primo Spe). That solved the one OSB I had that didnt get full hospital, it got like 12% coverage when I had a mammth with cl13PQ, so added a boomerang with 2 cl 13PQs, changed nothing. Then added a lev with cl17PQ and got full hospital same as my other OSBs.

There is a glitch that Jam has been looking at. I was getting Hospital bu from colonies unlinked or unvisited. Several that were not even mine. Several were getting nothing. I will try it, but suspect I will still see no increase.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby Loke » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:33 pm

RAM wrote:
Loke wrote:OSBs gets really slow after 30k modules. Building the 50k WH modules took forever for me.


I moved most of my graphene factories over 100 tiles on the OSB using an Orbital Grav Anchor. They do not render unless I fly out to them. Keep it running fast and still get the production./quote]

I did spread it out as much as possible, and up to 50k modules I could plan a new every 2.2 secunds, if I clicked plan more often it would only register a few of the plannend modules, leaving gaps every where. After 50k that was even to fast, so I gave up on building bigger. I had already done several things just to be able to efficiently build bigger than 30k.

RAM wrote:I agree that we do still need to tweak. I think we all knew it going in. I did, anyway. Adding what we did is not easy to guess the outcomes. Easy to miss or overlook. One reason why I wanted to go slow and start low. We can go up and not make anyone upset.

Yeah, that was the plan, cause we can easily change them again in 3 months ;)
From the look of it now it might take a year from T2 implementation to first change. Not an issue for me, Ill take what I get and trust our president is able to make things happen as soon as the oppurtunity comes. Youve done a good job so far.

RAM wrote:I would have no issue with tweaking up most, if not all T2 base by 25%. I think dropping carbon slightly (-25 credits a ton)as we do it makes sense too. Slow change, but allows us to absorb it at a slow rate.

A 25% increase of a small amount is still very little. It needs a serious bump.

RAM wrote:What I am really trying to focus on is fun. What will make it ultimately more fun and enjoyable to play. If bumping T2 up does, then I am all for it. I am not seeing a massive influx into the economy from them now. This was my biggest concern. I think we do have a lot of room to work.

We agree on the goal but disagree how to get there, I think. Which is expected when the 2 of us play this game very differently. Makes interesting discussions though.


I did run some more numbers, same calculations as I edited in to my previous post.

This is the needed production to create enough of each item, that if sold at LM when price is at +40%, to get 315m credits off the daily production.

Image

With 1000 increase in base price colony T2 would need 10 times as many production buildings as carbon, + more infrastructure and extra challenge of balancing tertiary.
OSB T2 "only" needs 11k and 13k factories, a lot better than having to to build 20k or 30k. Does have the benefit of easy pickup at OSB, so I guess its at least a little interesting to produce with a 1000 increase in base price.
Wouldnt make anyone super rich very fast though I think, so I dont see a risk of increasing credit flow to players.

But to stay true to the plan of slow changes, my suggestion is a increase of 500 to the base price of T2, or in that area, I can do more proper calculation for each T2 based on the same criterias we used before it got implemented, when I see what amount of change players support.

The -25 to carbon I suggest at the same time, equals a change of 2500 for T2 OSB and 500 for colony T2 when adjusted with production per building.
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Re: ASC - Local Market Prices

Postby RAM » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:10 am

I think in line with a 25 credit drop in carbon, we may consider a 25 credit bump in all foods.
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