On Mining for Large, Established Interests

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On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby LadyHawk » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:47 am

Hey Guys,

This is becoming an increasing cause of concern and conflict for me. We have lost some of our most prolific miners recently,
Stag most notably. Those of us who remain can't begin to fill those shoes. So where do we go from here?

As one of the most avid remaining miners, I have received numerous requests to agree to supply contracts for exotic metals and
declined them all...because I enjoy mining but do not wish to be enslaved by it. A number of those whom I consider friends, and friends of those friends, have also asked for help...not on a contract basis per se...but at a level of voluntary contribution that would require way more hours than I or even 10 of my friends equally adept and interested in mining would be able to fill. The prices offered are more than generous but, as I'm sure all of those looking for such huge supplies at a time are well aware, credits become pretty meaningless once you reach a certain level. I'd like to make my friends happy...even for free...but its just not possible.

And then, even more importantly, we have the other side of the coin. I have continued to work very hard to make tin and nio available to any and all at my Hawk Base at reasonable prices. And I have discovered, in so doing, that there are many, MANY players who never speak in global chat or post on the forums but who are very eager to acquire such resources whenever they are made available.
Perhaps some of them are alts of you rich and famous types, but I suspect they are mostly newer players with smaller goals trying to build up and eke out a living for themselves here....and isn't that what we, as the more established community, are most interested in growing???

I guess what I'm asking is that all you big guys wanting gazillions of exotic metals to build fleets of ships and gates and terraforming modules and stuff, maybe need to take it down a notch, while you mine your own metals? Or at least be more patient while the fledgling miners grow to be able to meet your needs...without shutting out the newer players who just want to build a few of their own coils or a ship or two of their own?

Food for thought and welcome any and all comments...Thanks!
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby Spectre » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:28 am

Nice post Ladyhawk.....
This explains a core point of the game to allow intermediate players to grow at their own pace and not feel rushed or pressured. I would recommend receding sell orders and selling contract only or gm posts. I think if you do ur mining and ur filling of orders at ur leisure it will allow u to have more fun in-game and allow them to fend for themselves for a bit. Stag is a prolific miner and is on a level above most others in-game. Only a few veterans can match his output, as u said in so many words. If they are true friends they will understand your thoughts on the subject, and allow you breathing room.

Just my thoughts.
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby Mizz » Sat Nov 05, 2016 8:25 am

Well said and to the point, but will they listen ?

Thumbs up to you Ladyhawk.


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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby davh62 » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:34 pm

Point well said & needed to be said.

I both agree and disagree LH. It's a dilemma that has been around a long time. I should say that vet players aren't trying to create a monopoly on exotics as some may think. These players work harder than most to expand the game map both via gates and terraforming. Even 12 months ago the map looked a lot more sparse and less interesting for new players. Where we are now gives new players many choices with regard to revenue streams around the known gated systems. I see new players in big ships in very quick spans of time. In my day it took several months just to aquire a seraph in a time that tin/nio was only 50k a pop.
We do have few miners now & I think this is because module size keeps obviously getting bigger leading to higher materials required. We also have palaces and TF coming in game. Two years ago the miners guild was at the height of its power led by RAM. They were able to keep pace with both their own needs and the communities needs due to module size being that much smaller and thus requirements lower. Forward on two years and trade to the inners has become the main income stream due to huge ships. New players tend to mine for a while initially then once they get a big enough ship switch to carb/mat hauling. They then mine for their own needs and fall short. I believe this is exactly what is happening.
We could throttle off and take down our buy orders but I don't see this making any meaningful difference. You could argue that tin/nio prices need to skyrocket in price to also encourage mining, but again as ships get bigger the haul to the inners option just gets more appealing. Lowering prices across the whole mats board(low low) would probably kill trading and make the game a less interesting place for new players. There has to be a sense of progression for a lot of players. I'm not sure of the answer.

I'm going to suggest that we need many new roid types along with building/mod needs to stimulate the mechanic. Credits need more purpose in terms of how they are spent, maybe more new buildings that also need credit spend as well material requirement. Maybe buildings should also have an upkeep in credits?

It is inevitable as the game progresses(and players) that the same issues remain as is.


**EDIT** maybe a low percentage chance of getting a rare new exotic from a common roid? A bit like getting deut from gas skimming. Or put algea spores inside :D
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby Moneyman » Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:41 pm

:mrgreen: LH - you are starting to find your voice - REALLY GOOD TO SEE YOU SPEAK YOUR MIND. :D

:arrow: Don't forget: THIS IS ONLY A GAME - If you can: GO BACK TO HAVING FUN

:!: I don't want you to get stressed out - take a few breaths. :D
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby Hubes » Sat Nov 05, 2016 2:33 pm

Very great points by all and I'm very glad to see some serious thoughts on the subject. Forgive me if this post gets a bit long...as it's something that was on my mind long before even my hiatus, and is just as crucial now as ever...if not more so.

Mining is essential to growth. We need the materials for ships, gates, and most upgrades. There are a few styles of mining I've witnessed over the past few years and while these may be rough definitions and players my shift in styles over time most can understand at least in some part what I'm getting at.

1) Casual mining: Visiting public fields to harvest what's needed personally, and perhaps a small cache of personal discovered systems. Most early players fall into this category. These players will mine opportunistically. They don't need a lot personally...they mostly earn some funds and build some coils and probes to help grow. Some mid-level players will fit in here too as if they're not building ships or parts they don't need high volumes.

2) Dedicated mining: These miners have their own field lists that they track and grow...only harvesting them when they're at a certain age to yield a desired amount of rare materials. These are the players that supply quantities to ship builders and gate builders. They are the backbone of the growth of our civilization.

3) Scavengers: I have not seen this form of mining in quite a long time, but it had a major hand in the breaking up of our long standing organized mining teams. These miners actively hunted for fields being harvested by dedicated miners. Since these fields are not and can not be owned by the miners, it was not breaking any rules in the game, but it was very destructive to the morale and cohesion of the community.

Two very important things need to be done to regrow our mining output. (these are my opinions as always...they are not fact and you are all free to disagree with anything I say in this post)

1) Casual miners need to be supported and nurtured and given the opportunity and ability to become dedicated miners if they so choose.

2) Dedicated miners need to be supported, nurtured, and allowed to mine unpressured so that they can do what they love to do without burning out and feeling required to show up for a 'job' everyday to keep people happy.

These are difficult goals to achieve, but goals we should discuss nonetheless. Generally speaking we either need to work towards growing our output, or reducing our consumption. Anyone who knows me knows I -always- focus on growth and shun stepping back and reducing growth...but for that path to be viable we need to put some real thought and effort into growing our output.

Why do miners mine at all? Three simple answers are fun, money, and to help others. There may well be other answers as well, but I'll address the ones I stated.

Fun: How do we add to the fun? How do we encourage freelance mining as a fun past-time?

Money: This is simple...would more money encourage more to mine? If so, how do we get there? This is the one I'm most ready to discuss in detail at present as I have much time invested in purchasing rare ores from large volumes of miners and have observed many trends and shifts

Help: How do we encourage players to help pitch in without crushing them with demand and burning them out?

These are all topics to think and talk about...and I hope this doesn't detract too much from LH's point of more larger players mining for themselves. Many of us are doing just that in our own way when we can, so I wanted to discuss options on solving the shortage, rather then simply releaving the pressure.

Thoughts? Comments?
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby BoshingTong » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:06 pm

Good points Hubes. As a long time player I really hate mining. It has been a long time since I mined. My skill is low and the yield is low even with a large MB. If you use a big ship with a big MB I find it hard to fly. I think a new line of ships in the classes we have that are designed for mining and scooping would be great. Something like the Bowhead. It can have large capacity and take an up classed MB. Would also need a quicker movement in all axises. I think that would be helpful.

I might need to go back and mine some for my needs, but I would still rather pay for the tin/nio that I need.

Lady if you are need quick creds let me know I will put up a high price for you anytime.
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby rmartz » Sat Nov 05, 2016 3:10 pm

Hubes wrote:Thoughts? Comments?


LH and your points are both good. Davh made some good point too. Here is the old guy's perspective.

Too many chiefs and not enough Indians.

We all soon grow to the CEO status of our fiefdoms. Mining and hauling are tasks that are time eaters and we all would like to hire someone to do that for us. The challenge is with the small player base and game dynamics, we are forced to be CEO and truck driver/material acquiring agent for ourselves.

It is really easy to dream big in this game. I love that part. The challenge is it often takes a lot of GAME TIME to accomplish those dreams. I have marveled in life often about the dreamers and the doers. It is easy to be a dreamer. Much harder to be a doer. There are few hard core doers. Few of us can do mindless tasks over and over and not get bored. We have several things that fall into that role in game presently, if a player wants to complete one of their lofty dreams. Hauling from a high production colony to market, mining, gate building, terraforming and large scale exploration are a few that come to mind. At the core of gate building and terraforming are mining resources and hauling materials. So they exacerbate the conundrum (yes, I said it that way just to make it look like I know what I am saying).

Game design at its core is to reward game play time. This is why we can only mine nio and tin from asteroids. Nio, I can kind of see, but tin was made back in the copper age. Some how we lost that knowledge?

Yet, if we can start making tin at colonies, we will mine less and let the mindless throlls make it for us. We will spend less time in game and just pop in to direct. This moves us away from time investment in game.

Stag was a massive miner along with Justance, and Arieal. They all spent massive amounts of game time doing this. Many "leeched" off their game time by buying, using the resources they provided.

Yes, I could organize the MG to start addressing the needed shortages, but it actually feeds the monster. Dreamers will dream bigger and demand more since they are not spending the game time to acquire the materials they need to make it happen. Once someone realizes they have to spend the game time to build massive projects, they realize what it actually takes, thus the many planned an uncompleted gates out there.

I doubt we will find a group of dedicated miners to supply the hunger of the game right now. This means many who want will have to go get themselves. I am spending hours and hours charting to provide data for those who want to do that, but have given up on trying to supply that monster. I supply all the nio and tin I use and then some, but will not go back into massive supply any time soon. It is too hard to juggle all the tasks right now. MM makes a great point too. This is a game. We do need to make it fun. One way is to not be strapped with other people's needs/ demands. I appreciate those who are willing to supply the nio/tin needed by others. With the demands for bigger ships, the demand just keeps going up. I build archons for my NPC just to keep the mat cost down. Many are building Levs for their NPC. I do get it. I see no problem with that, but with so much expendable credits, what else can we do but buy at a higher price to keep our empires expanding forward?

Okay, I think this is a longer post than Hubes. I just wanted to outdo him. 8-)
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby LadyHawk » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:48 pm

Wow, thanks for all the responses! I'm very encouraged and impressed with all the good thoughts.

I know the overall issue is going to take much more to fix, but I've been thinking about ways to apply
a few band-aids for now and came up with the following...

First, any new-ish players that need a modest amount of tin and/or nio, please PM me here with
your game name and requirements and I will do my best to post them to you on the GM at Apollo
for a very reasonable price.

I'm concerned that many of those newer players don't read here in the forum so will never see that
offer, however. So my second band-aid requires a little cooperation from the rest of you. In my house,
when we have guests, there is always an abundance of treats provided to make them feel welcome.
Immediate family is strictly forbidden from devouring those treats for the first 24 hours, so the guests
get a fair crack at them first. After the first 24 hours, its open season and everybody help yourself.
I'd like to institute the '24 hour rule' at Hawk Base. All of you veteran players are considered family
so when I post tin and nio for sale there, please don't buy it right away but give the little guys a chance
first. If, after 24 hours, there is more than 5K tons of either or both, help yourself!

I know that might be a pain to monitor because even I never know how much I'm going to have to put up
for sale and when it will get posted at the Base. So, how about this, to help the veterans as much as
I can. I am what Hubes would define as a dedicated miner, but so far I have very few of my own fields to
harvest. I mainly mine the publicly listed roid fields and good ones are few and far between. However,
if you have good roid fields that are not listed publicly, I would be willing to mine them for you for 10% of
the harvest. I mine with a class 16 mining beam and my mining skill is currently 124. If interested, PM
me with the location of your field(s) and the way you'd like you harvest to be delivered.

I hope some of this stuff helps!
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Re: On Mining for Large, Established Interests

Postby Moneyman » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:44 pm

:mrgreen: LH luv the avatar ... always wanted to see how you see yourself .. the image fits you.

:idea: I think you are on target - a tight finish between you, Hubes & RAM.

:arrow: Common point: Feeding & care of new players - the other ideas are less important.
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