Combat Improvements

Complain about the nerfs here
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby PopeKael » Sun May 14, 2017 1:21 am

LadyHawk wrote:Ok, I am far from a combat guru here, but in the interest of answering Jam's questions about what needs improvement in this area ...I have the following observations....

I have entered numerous combat scenarios now, with a Levi armed with Class 15 shield and 2 class 16 turrets, one mounted fore, the other aft. In about half the scenarios I've entered, my weaponry has quickly overcome the enemy forces in pretty prompt order.....but the other half have sat in limbo status....turrets refusing to fire despite optimal positioning.....leaving me at a total loss at what to do about it???

Sometimes, exiting the game and relogging have solved the problem, but not always. What is missing or needs fixing???

As I stated earlier, personally, I don't give a rip about combat issues...but if this something that needs addressing to attract the kind of crowd you are targeting....definitely needs some work.

I would, of course, like some clues on how the PVE system works. That 3rd mission, there are 3 ships that come at you and with the standard laser that comes with the ships, it's like throwing darts from 100 paces.

I'm a damn good pilot in Star Citizen and can take out all enemies in Vandal Swarm without any problems, but this combat system is ridiculous. I don't see any wiki article written on how to succeed or what or where to place weapons, what type of weapons, or what ships work best.

I would also like to see a better key binding system for my Hotas setup here.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby RAM » Sun May 14, 2017 1:02 pm

LadyHawk wrote:Ok, I am far from a combat guru here, but in the interest of answering Jam's questions about what needs improvement in this area ...I have the following observations....

I have entered numerous combat scenarios now, with a Levi armed with Class 15 shield and 2 class 16 turrets, one mounted fore, the other aft. In about half the scenarios I've entered, my weaponry has quickly overcome the enemy forces in pretty prompt order.....but the other half have sat in limbo status....turrets refusing to fire despite optimal positioning.....leaving me at a total loss at what to do about it???

Sometimes, exiting the game and relogging have solved the problem, but not always. What is missing or needs fixing???

As I stated earlier, personally, I don't give a rip about combat issues...but if this something that needs addressing to attract the kind of crowd you are targeting....definitely needs some work.


I assume they are in range. Each weapon will only fire when an enemy is within a certain range to the ship. They can be seen and detected for quite a distance, but need to be within 5000m to be in range to be hit. It has been so long since I did combat, I can not remember if there is a class modifier to range like mining beams. If there is, the higher the beam above class 5 the further it will shoot. If there is not a range modifier, maybe there should be.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby LadyHawk » Sun May 14, 2017 10:22 pm

Thanks, Ram, its good to know for sure that weapon to target range needs to be under 5000m. I have been just guessing what's close enough but I'm quite sure that I was at least that close and had ships nose or tail pointed at enemy ships but still, often, turrets just wouldn't fire.

I should say that with frequent logging off and back on again, I have not found an 'Encounter' on the Janus A space quest line that I couldn't, eventually, get to work. Some of the other Encounters out in Borg Conduit 006 space I couldn't get to work no matter how many times I relogged, made sure I was pointed directly at enemy ship, and got so close I rammed it with my nose...and still turrets wouldn't fire.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby RAM » Mon May 15, 2017 2:37 am

LadyHawk wrote:Thanks, Ram, its good to know for sure that weapon to target range needs to be under 5000m. I have been just guessing what's close enough but I'm quite sure that I was at least that close and had ships nose or tail pointed at enemy ships but still, often, turrets just wouldn't fire.

I should say that with frequent logging off and back on again, I have not found an 'Encounter' on the Janus A space quest line that I couldn't, eventually, get to work. Some of the other Encounters out in Borg Conduit 006 space I couldn't get to work no matter how many times I relogged, made sure I was pointed directly at enemy ship, and got so close I rammed it with my nose...and still turrets wouldn't fire.


Sounds like a bug, for sure.

I have a couple of mammoths with 2 cl 12 broadsides forward mounted for system encounters. Works well and the mammoth turns fast enough to keep them in my sights. It is my crew that pulls the trigger though. Not me. I am just the pilot. That's my excuse and I am sticking with it.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby davh62 » Mon May 15, 2017 6:20 am

RAM wrote:
LadyHawk wrote:Thanks, Ram, its good to know for sure that weapon to target range needs to be under 5000m. I have been just guessing what's close enough but I'm quite sure that I was at least that close and had ships nose or tail pointed at enemy ships but still, often, turrets just wouldn't fire.

I should say that with frequent logging off and back on again, I have not found an 'Encounter' on the Janus A space quest line that I couldn't, eventually, get to work. Some of the other Encounters out in Borg Conduit 006 space I couldn't get to work no matter how many times I relogged, made sure I was pointed directly at enemy ship, and got so close I rammed it with my nose...and still turrets wouldn't fire.


Sounds like a bug, for sure.

I have a couple of mammoths with 2 cl 12 broadsides forward mounted for system encounters. Works well and the mammoth turns fast enough to keep them in my sights. It is my crew that pulls the trigger though. Not me. I am just the pilot. That's my excuse and I am sticking with it.


:lol: RAM.
LH not sure what's happening, seems to work ok for me.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby Wulf » Mon May 15, 2017 10:35 pm

interesting conundrum

with combat so underdeveloped it allows us uninformed masses to put our two cents in lol

with that said I guess a few background thoughts are necessary because it changes the direction of combat.
1) twitch master: my lest favour type of game but many like it , it rewards quick reflex, powerful computers and fast Internet.
if this is the type then the game needs to reflect it and the way combat is developed. upside fast pace likly get a few that just love it, cons, high requirements and lot of very high-end, big budget games in same area.
2) strategic; this is still an option , I don't really see it but here it goes: we have many many NPC ships of all types with a single player vs X, and the player works at a more high armchair general lv. upside massive combats, use lots of player resources, downside, pulls away from the single player, single ship that is current.
3) tactical, current system to some extent. upside it continues to move the single player dialog, downside not as exciting as twitch but lot less resource (game requirements) this is shown by the self targeting and firing of all weapons except the axial (with is almost never used due to it's terrible aim, no lock on and no correcting movement). currently the way combat works is everything facing one(ish) way and u turn ship to target for big hit and hope overpowered armour and shields take all the hits from the perfit AI combat ships (they never miss or make mistakes lol)

optional factors
A) we view combat as submarine warfare or Zeppelins ;p (most likely way we can see space combat) giant slow moving ships that pound on each other till something gives.
B) aircraft (and many more twitch) but that means we need craft that can turn.
C) fleet combat, allow NPC to assist and other players and have a role defined missions and/or fleet combats. (personal favour of mine)
to add to this defined rolls would be very differnt then current or most space games the easiest way to envision is to picture each player with a roll like a squad, recon and hit/run, defender, strike, leader, support, interdiction ect. some rolls buy players some by NPC's
D) not really a current option but elite stealth,

anyhow just a few uneducated thoughts on combat and hope some good food for thought.

last point, IF combat remains more or less to the big front attack can we have really good front mount to place weapons?
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby rastilion » Tue May 16, 2017 6:13 am

RAM wrote:I assume they are in range. Each weapon will only fire when an enemy is within a certain range to the ship. They can be seen and detected for quite a distance, but need to be within 5000m to be in range to be hit. It has been so long since I did combat, I can not remember if there is a class modifier to range like mining beams. If there is, the higher the beam above class 5 the further it will shoot. If there is not a range modifier, maybe there should be.


Unless the following is a bug: maybe you should note that the range of 5km goes for ships with a vector difference of 0 (Both ships standing still or moving in the same direction at the same speed).
Depending on your ETA to the opponent, you can fire from far greater ranges. Approaching an opponent at high speed, i could fire from nearly 16k out. No chance for manouvering at those speeds, though.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby PopeKael » Sat May 20, 2017 2:49 am

Just ignore the rank listed to the left here
<--------- He's Commodore R3 now - LoL

Anyway, since I've now had a taste of the current combat system I can throw my 10 cents worth in (Damn! how inflation catches up so fast)

After many emergency jumps from Dave the Chicken Computer...... I finally worked out what the enemy seemed to be doing, and what I needed to do to take them out. I must say, it was more challenging than your typical Pew Pew battle system that the average space pirate would be familiar with.

The closest thing that I could equate it to would be similar to EVE where they recommend you orbit an enemy at your optimal firing range for your weapons within your optimal firing arc at your ships optimal speed so that the weapon tracking can stay on target.

Of course, finding your optimal range for the different weapons wasn't easy, but it does look to be similar to the mining beams where cl1 weapons is around 5km and as the weapon class increases, so does the range. Ram loaned me some cl12 broadside lasers and they seemed to be engaging at around 17km but I'd have to run some screen recordings to get accurate numbers on that since I was more focused on the joystick turn to keep withing the 45 degree firing arc of the weapons. Unlike EVE, there is no way to compute the orbit vector so you need to do a lot of guessing to orbit the enemy.

Of course, thinking about player retention which is another hot topic, a new player who isn't as patient as me would probably use this combat system mechanics as another bullet point in their rage quit scenario. Let's face it, people like Pew Pew, but in this games NPC AI system, the point and shoot method is a sure fire way to get Dave to emergency warp you back to mommy. A proper wiki article on the combat system would go a long way to retaining new players (once they find or are directed to the wiki).

So, I personally don't mind the current combat system now that I know what I need to do to beat the enemy. The biggest problem is 'unlearning' your natural tendency to do the point and shoot pew pew.
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Re: Combat Improvements

Postby davh62 » Sat May 20, 2017 8:29 am

PopeKael wrote:Just ignore the rank listed to the left here
<--------- He's Commodore R3 now - LoL

Anyway, since I've now had a taste of the current combat system I can throw my 10 cents worth in (Damn! how inflation catches up so fast)

After many emergency jumps from Dave the Chicken Computer...... I finally worked out what the enemy seemed to be doing, and what I needed to do to take them out. I must say, it was more challenging than your typical Pew Pew battle system that the average space pirate would be familiar with.

The closest thing that I could equate it to would be similar to EVE where they recommend you orbit an enemy at your optimal firing range for your weapons within your optimal firing arc at your ships optimal speed so that the weapon tracking can stay on target.

Of course, finding your optimal range for the different weapons wasn't easy, but it does look to be similar to the mining beams where cl1 weapons is around 5km and as the weapon class increases, so does the range. Ram loaned me some cl12 broadside lasers and they seemed to be engaging at around 17km but I'd have to run some screen recordings to get accurate numbers on that since I was more focused on the joystick turn to keep withing the 45 degree firing arc of the weapons. Unlike EVE, there is no way to compute the orbit vector so you need to do a lot of guessing to orbit the enemy.

Of course, thinking about player retention which is another hot topic, a new player who isn't as patient as me would probably use this combat system mechanics as another bullet point in their rage quit scenario. Let's face it, people like Pew Pew, but in this games NPC AI system, the point and shoot method is a sure fire way to get Dave to emergency warp you back to mommy. A proper wiki article on the combat system would go a long way to retaining new players (once they find or are directed to the wiki).

So, I personally don't mind the current combat system now that I know what I need to do to beat the enemy. The biggest problem is 'unlearning' your natural tendency to do the point and shoot pew pew.


Very good points Pope. I personally have been hoping to the combat rework for years. I'm sure it will come in time. I do believe that we have lost players due to the current combat system as many gamers like to "pew, pew". I'm sure when we get a new engine things will be more dynamic. PVE with the built in EG is a good thing, but if RZ even comes there should be risk, reward, excitement & tension. Ships should be destroyed or disabled. This could lead to things like escape pods, rescue missions, repair ships and ransom. I'm still preying for an alien race in RZ that threatens our ascent way of life!
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