## A real 3D navigation tool

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**1**of**2**•**1**, 2### A real 3D navigation tool

This is how a real spaceship navigates. Despite the appearance in a 2D image, the ship's vector is relative to 3 parallel axis - shown in the image as red, blue and green. All motion in the game graphics is (effectively) the sum of the all the ship's motions.

Startrek and Stargate ships don't allow perturbations to influence ship navigation so why do online games allow it?

This is not new information: The Wright Brothers knew about 3D graphics long before Kittyhawk - Why do game programmers not provide real 3D graphics?

Personally. I think it is programmer tunnel vision - Games are meant to be fun but that requires that game programmers to want the game to be fun - so why don't they want that?

See Moneyman contribution link: http://forum.thespacegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3242&p=26802#p26802.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

We have navigation in all 3 axis.

Ingame accounts: RAM, rmartz

Check out RAM Memories.

Visit AscentExtras.com for player built game tools, guilds, and links to game related data.

I think I am funnier than I really am.

Check out RAM Memories.

Visit AscentExtras.com for player built game tools, guilds, and links to game related data.

I think I am funnier than I really am.

**User****Rank**Commodore

**Posts**1584

**Joined**Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:19 pm

**Location**MIB Tyngbraneth, Miner's Paradise

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

Our 3D navigation tool.

I am currently plotting a path for a Manta from the Inner 9 systems to my Outer Shipyards. Using the Galactic Map, the axes are labelled and, as know the location (X, Y, Z) of both the start point and my destination, I can work out which direction to move in. All that is needed is to find a star systemwith a Gas Giant within a Manta's jump-range of my current location in that general direction. Having found one, I repeat the procedure until I am in range of the destination.

I would be nice and a whole easier, if I could limit the stars shown to those within the 13ly range of a Manta, but for now, I can manage.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

Why not fly the ship out in a carrier?

Owner of BSFA (Bosh Survey & Freightage Authority)

Senator of Logopolis, New Dawn, Babylon

Governor of Poosh, Tigland, Prime Sun, Babel

Mayor of all BSFA Colonies & OSBs

Senator of Logopolis, New Dawn, Babylon

Governor of Poosh, Tigland, Prime Sun, Babel

Mayor of all BSFA Colonies & OSBs

**User****Rank**Commodore

**Posts**1584

**Joined**Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:19 pm

**Location**MIB Tyngbraneth, Miner's Paradise

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

BoshingTong wrote:Why not fly the ship out in a carrier?

To try and get the maximum number of Ophan hulls ready at the same time, I wanted to manufacture them at my ungated Shipyards. The idea was not to get Mantas out to the Shipyards, but to get the Ophans back from them. Atm, if we pick up a ship, we have to leave a ship behind at the Shipyard. Leavng a Manta means that I can collect them with a Carrier and use them again.This way I was able to fly a Manta to the ungated shipyard, e-jump the hull back to Ceres and fit the modules. Using one Manta for each of my ungated Shipyards I was able to make an extra four hulls at a time, When the hulls had been fitted out I rounded up the Mantas with a Carrier and repeated the operation.

Because we cannot transport hulls themselves, this was the method I thought up to allow me to make six Ophans at a time. Now it has worked, I have been putting a bit more effort in to developing a shorter route for when the Class 15 ship is released.

Navigation using the Galactic Map is not easy. We could use a tool to let us put in a limit to the distance away from the currently selected system a star will appear; at present this seems to be about 30ly and I only wanted stars within 13ly, but I have persevered and now have a four jump route rather than my old six jump route.

Last edited by Mooncrest on Fri Mar 04, 2016 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

That make perfect sense.

Owner of BSFA (Bosh Survey & Freightage Authority)

Senator of Logopolis, New Dawn, Babylon

Governor of Poosh, Tigland, Prime Sun, Babel

Mayor of all BSFA Colonies & OSBs

Senator of Logopolis, New Dawn, Babylon

Governor of Poosh, Tigland, Prime Sun, Babel

Mayor of all BSFA Colonies & OSBs

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

In the big picture there is 3D navigation via the map BUT I'm talking about 3D navigation within a solar system!!!

I'm having a devil of a time matching orbit with asteroids using thrusters - one distance measure and one velocity measure is acceptable for landing at a colony BUT not acceptable in chasing asteroids!!! At least a colony has a navigation beam.

I need three numbers for axis distance and change in approach to each axis OTHERWISE mining is a very painful and frustrating form of game play for me. A game developer should show greater mercy to players like me.

You did notice the asteroid and ship in my image? The map has little to do with asteroids!!!

Sorry. I'm not Starbuck - I need buttons and navigation beams.

I'm having a devil of a time matching orbit with asteroids using thrusters - one distance measure and one velocity measure is acceptable for landing at a colony BUT not acceptable in chasing asteroids!!! At least a colony has a navigation beam.

I need three numbers for axis distance and change in approach to each axis OTHERWISE mining is a very painful and frustrating form of game play for me. A game developer should show greater mercy to players like me.

You did notice the asteroid and ship in my image? The map has little to do with asteroids!!!

Sorry. I'm not Starbuck - I need buttons and navigation beams.

See Moneyman contribution link: http://forum.thespacegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3242&p=26802#p26802.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

I have a solution to the problem that inspired this thread - a need for easier within a given solar system navigation, The solution: Modifying the radar to include additional ship-to-target information about the x, y & z axis distances.

Because my intention was to explain coding considerations, there is a lot of algebra used to show how color lengths are calculated.

So, some of you may be reminded of unpleasant high school / college experiences.

But, many of us need to lower some of the game mountains like the JAM-1 mission.

Take a look at http://miners-guild.com/downloads/moneyman/3D_mechanics.odt and tell me what you think.

Because my intention was to explain coding considerations, there is a lot of algebra used to show how color lengths are calculated.

So, some of you may be reminded of unpleasant high school / college experiences.

But, many of us need to lower some of the game mountains like the JAM-1 mission.

Take a look at http://miners-guild.com/downloads/moneyman/3D_mechanics.odt and tell me what you think.

See Moneyman contribution link: http://forum.thespacegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3242&p=26802#p26802.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

There was a problem with the above link so i'm posting the file's content despite drawbacks to this medium.

The above image illustrates my 3D nav solution to a nav problem many of us have.

About Using uniform 3D objects, a & b, to explain axial distance and motion ideas.

A blue color strip is axial distance.

A green color strip means axial distance is getting smaller.

A red color strip means axial distance is getting bigger.

A color strip is easier to understand and react to than a number since humans are innately image orientated while numbers require a image to concept mental calculation.

Content Axial stationary distance → Relax restriction → Object b in motion → Both objects in motion → Benefit to players → Benefit to JAM

Axial stationary distance Moment-to-moment intervening space between 3D objects.

In uniform objects, this is the intervening space between object center-of-gravity axis vector points less uniform axis origin extents.

For an given moment: a's center-of-gravity axis vector is (x1,y1,z1) and

b's center-of-gravity axis vector is (x2,y2,z2).

Let a's grid axial range be: (-a1:a1,-a2:a2,-a3:a3) relative to (x1,y1,z1) and

b's grid axial range be: (-b1:b1,-b2:b2,-b3:b3) relative to (x2,y2,z2).

For a the axis origin extents are: a1, a2 and a3.

For b the axis origin extents are: b1, b2 and b3.

Assume a comes-before b or (x1<x2,y1<y2,z1<z2) and a and b are both stationary.

Then collision point range is: (x1 + a1:x2 - b1,y1 + a2:y2 - b2,z1 + a3:z2 – b3)

Assume, initially, no grid overlap in the above range vector ex: x1 + a1 < x2 - b1.

Stationary distance vector = (x2 – b1 - x1 + a1, y2 – b2 - y1 + a2, z2 – b3 - z1 + a3).

X axis collision if |x2 – b1| = (x1 + a1) – i. e. nothing between a's and b's x axis borders.

Relax restriction Position of a and b arbitrary except no object overlap.

The stationary distance vector requires absolute value calculations – ex: |x2 – b1| > -1

Stationary distance vector under relaxed restriction:

(||x2 – b1| - |x1 + a1||, ||y2 – b2| - |y1 + a2||, ||z2 – b3| -| z1 + a3||)

Object b in motion Current b's motion vector = (bx, by, bz).

If a given axis motion < 0 then use green and motion >0 then use red in radar image.

Recalculate (x2,y2,z2) as (x2+bx, y2+by, z2+bz) then calculate distance vector using the above stationary distance vector formula.

Both objects in motion Current a's vector = (ax, ay, az) and b's vector = (bx, by, bz).

For motion: Use green when motion >0

and use red when motion <0.

Recalculate (x1, y1, z1) as (x1 + ax, y1 + ay, z1 + az)

and (x2, y2, z2) as (x2 + bx, y2 + by, z2 + bz)

Calculate distance vector using the above stationary distance vector formula.

Benefit to players Now players see when the player's ship overshoots a target because the blue distance measure starts getting bigger in one or more axis(s).

If the rate of change in any axis changes from green to red – the target approach is becoming an overshoot in that axis – the game becomes fun, again,

Benefit to JAM NASA may be calling.

The only remaining issue is how to match a's and b's motion – something for you to add at another time – especially if you get that call.

The above image illustrates my 3D nav solution to a nav problem many of us have.

About Using uniform 3D objects, a & b, to explain axial distance and motion ideas.

A blue color strip is axial distance.

A green color strip means axial distance is getting smaller.

A red color strip means axial distance is getting bigger.

A color strip is easier to understand and react to than a number since humans are innately image orientated while numbers require a image to concept mental calculation.

Content Axial stationary distance → Relax restriction → Object b in motion → Both objects in motion → Benefit to players → Benefit to JAM

Axial stationary distance Moment-to-moment intervening space between 3D objects.

In uniform objects, this is the intervening space between object center-of-gravity axis vector points less uniform axis origin extents.

For an given moment: a's center-of-gravity axis vector is (x1,y1,z1) and

b's center-of-gravity axis vector is (x2,y2,z2).

Let a's grid axial range be: (-a1:a1,-a2:a2,-a3:a3) relative to (x1,y1,z1) and

b's grid axial range be: (-b1:b1,-b2:b2,-b3:b3) relative to (x2,y2,z2).

For a the axis origin extents are: a1, a2 and a3.

For b the axis origin extents are: b1, b2 and b3.

Assume a comes-before b or (x1<x2,y1<y2,z1<z2) and a and b are both stationary.

Then collision point range is: (x1 + a1:x2 - b1,y1 + a2:y2 - b2,z1 + a3:z2 – b3)

Assume, initially, no grid overlap in the above range vector ex: x1 + a1 < x2 - b1.

Stationary distance vector = (x2 – b1 - x1 + a1, y2 – b2 - y1 + a2, z2 – b3 - z1 + a3).

X axis collision if |x2 – b1| = (x1 + a1) – i. e. nothing between a's and b's x axis borders.

Relax restriction Position of a and b arbitrary except no object overlap.

The stationary distance vector requires absolute value calculations – ex: |x2 – b1| > -1

Stationary distance vector under relaxed restriction:

(||x2 – b1| - |x1 + a1||, ||y2 – b2| - |y1 + a2||, ||z2 – b3| -| z1 + a3||)

Object b in motion Current b's motion vector = (bx, by, bz).

If a given axis motion < 0 then use green and motion >0 then use red in radar image.

Recalculate (x2,y2,z2) as (x2+bx, y2+by, z2+bz) then calculate distance vector using the above stationary distance vector formula.

Both objects in motion Current a's vector = (ax, ay, az) and b's vector = (bx, by, bz).

For motion: Use green when motion >0

and use red when motion <0.

Recalculate (x1, y1, z1) as (x1 + ax, y1 + ay, z1 + az)

and (x2, y2, z2) as (x2 + bx, y2 + by, z2 + bz)

Calculate distance vector using the above stationary distance vector formula.

Benefit to players Now players see when the player's ship overshoots a target because the blue distance measure starts getting bigger in one or more axis(s).

If the rate of change in any axis changes from green to red – the target approach is becoming an overshoot in that axis – the game becomes fun, again,

Benefit to JAM NASA may be calling.

The only remaining issue is how to match a's and b's motion – something for you to add at another time – especially if you get that call.

### Re: A real 3D navigation tool

Is everybody playing Ascent that smart?!

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