Barter vs Monopoly

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Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Moneyman » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:03 pm

:mrgreen: I think some Stock Market prices are bit high.

Content Contributions → Main topics → Rule of thumb → FreeRange → Contract price → Average contract price → Niobium → Robots → Conclusion

Contributions My Ascent footprint http://forum.thespacegame.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=3242&p=26802#p26802

Main topics This thread's objective.

Focus: .... Rule of thumb → FreeRange → Contract price
Evidence: Average contract price → Niobium → Robots

Rule of thumb A game should be fun for all its players.

:o Monopoly is the result of an inequity between game players – a playing advantage.

:) When playing advantages are balanced, a game remains fair to all players.

:oops: In the long run, it is smart business policy not to gouge customers since gouging encourages competion and competition can shrink your customer base.

FreeRange FreeRange OSB Space is located at New Dawn.

:idea: The Buy / Sell perspective is a middleman perspective the buy (offering) price must be lower than sell (contract) price by a reasonal margin for a middleman to buy.

:?: So is FreeRange's price of $210k per ton for Niobium fair? That is, are buy / sell prices fair?

:idea: A fair contract with a 25% margin is Niobium contracts of $267,000 per ton.

Contract price Source: Inner eight contract prices, markets other than Janus A.

:idea: Inner eight contract prices tend to be high compared to nearby markets such as Menzel 3 OSBs so outer markets should generally be lower.

:idea: A fair buy / sell margin might be a 25% margin – contract price = offering price + 25% margin.

:idea: In a reverse perspective of a 25% margin: offering price = 80% of contract price.

:!: Inner eight contracts reflect buy prices for Niobium so an offering price should 20% less.

Average contract price Technique: Summing sample Inner eight contracts.

:idea: Purchase cost = Multiply item tally by price per ton,
:idea: Average price = Sum of Purchase cost(s) / Sum of the item tally(s).

Example: 227 tally / $20,603 price per ton - Purchase cost = $4,676,881

Niobium How fair is FreeRange's price of $210k per ton for Niobium?.

:arrow: Some sample Niobium contracts: 227 / 20603, 327 / 17809, 519 / 20079, 42 / 16762

Cost = $21,625,429 = $4,676,881 + $5,823,543 + $10,421,001 + $705,004

Items = 1115 Average = $19,395 = $21,625,429 / 1115

:arrow: A fair offering price is 80% of contract price or roughly: $15,516 per ton.

:!: Gouging at FreeRange at $210,000 per ton!

Robots Materials exchanged for manufactured items plus cash.

:D In a similar way, a fair buy / sell price can calculated for manufactured items such as robots and fair barter exchange of so many manufactured items for Niobium plus cash.

:arrow: Sample contracts: 3 / 1,458, 4 / 2,574, 6 / 3672, 5 / 1710, 3 / 1,458, 6 / 2,520

Cost = $64,746 = $4,374 + $10,296 + $22,032 + $8,550 + $4,374 + $15,120

Items = 27 Average = $2,398 = $64,746 / 27 Offering: $1918

Barter 1 ton of Niobium ($19,395) for 8 robots ($2,398) + $211.

Conclusion Another calculator needed for http://ascentextras.com.

Barter transaction:

:arrow: Niobium supplier sells X tons of Niobium for X times $211 to Materials recipient.

:arrow: Materials recipient sells 8 times X robots to Niobium supplier for $1.
Last edited by Moneyman on Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Xanuri » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:18 pm

That gave me a headache, but I think I might have read between the lines, although I am not 100% sure, so here is a response based on my interpretation of what you attempted to say in English but instead used math.

Is it fair to sell Niobium for 210K cr/t?

The answer is, are you willing to pay it? If so, then its your in-game money, spend it how you want to.

If the answer is no, then don't, you simply find another source. IF it happens to be the only source, then maybe it is fair, because the supplier is spending their game time to mine said resource, if you think that is outrageous, then you have the free will to go mine it for yourself for free, all it will cost you is time.

The Commodity or demand for Niobium. This resource along with its close cousin Tin, are used in all of the materials used to build gates and now terraforming. With the new patch the demand will be higher because now the costs to terraform use the same core materials.

For your edification if you weren't aware...it costs ~2559.75 Superconducting Coils to make a single Promethium Capacitor. Each Coil is made of .05 electronics, .05 Mechanical Parts, .4 Niobium .4 Tin, .2 Carbon

so we take 2559.75 * .4 = 3583.65 Niobium need for a single Capacitor

Additionally, Stock Markets are used by everyone here who move product from one colony/OSB to another via NPC ships. One way to do this without someone else purchasing your materials, is to give it an insane price that no one would rightfully purchase the materials for then buy it on the other end for 1 credit more. This will register with the NPC haulers as a profit and they will move that product from OSB A to OSB B

People do have to be careful with doing this because should OSB B get too far behind in its purchase orders then someone could sell the product to them and make a huge profit, but if they can keep up the demand or limit the demand to a small amount then it could be a useful way to keep others out of your supply.

We have had this discussion from other players about the economy, many people expect and want, to profit from trading of basic goods, but most players goals are to be self sufficient, which removes the market dependency from relying on others.

If this game was designed so that you basically had to "choose a path" or job or role, because it was too expensive to specialize in more than one thing...then you would create a market that promoted co-dependency. Iron Miners would be dependent on Grain Farmers for food to feed their workers, and Grain Farmers would be dependent on Iron Miners for construction materials.

This just simply isn't the case here, and credits essentially at some point in your advancement in the game become moot.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby rmartz » Thu Jun 09, 2016 10:00 pm

I think anything over 100k a ton or tin or nio is too high, not for established players, but for new players who get catapulted past several lower level ships and loose the fun of the climb to bigger and better.

This is totally my opinion.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Mooncrest » Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:08 pm

I am not sure who owns FreeRange, but this price sounds like a carry-over from the Price War we had last year. If that is the case it shows that the price is too high as no-one has cleaned out the stock yet.

BTW: you have used the Contract Price at NPC Stations to calculate the average price for Niobium. NPC prices are static and not affected by supply or demand. Niobium and Tin are in very high demand by Players and the price Players are willing to pay reflects that. A better method of calculating a fair price would be to look at the prices Player's are willing to buy a commodity for on the Stock Market and work out a fair price using that data. For Niobium and Tin around 100k is about right as I agree with rmartz: much higher than that allows new Players to move through the ship classes too quickly, thus they miss out on learning the more subtle things about the game. I just wish we could rein in the hauling of Carbon, but at least that only gets really viable when your ship gets big enough.

It would be nice to be able to play Ascent as a Trader; buying and selling commodities around the Galaxy, but in practice, this is really not an option.The main reason being that only Niobium, Tin and possibly Promethium are viable commodities to trade and the players who mine them, sell them direct. The other great draw back is the lack of a viability check on a Stock market Buy Order; which allows non-viable Buy Orders to appear in the Stock Market Search Results list. This can be very frustrating for Players who arrive at a Stock Market and cannot sell the their cargo.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby davh62 » Fri Jun 10, 2016 11:14 am

Xanuri wrote:That gave me a headache, but I think I might have read between the lines, although I am not 100% sure, so here is a response based on my interpretation of what you attempted to say in English but instead used math.

Is it fair to sell Niobium for 210K cr/t?

The answer is, are you willing to pay it? If so, then its your in-game money, spend it how you want to.

If the answer is no, then don't, you simply find another source. IF it happens to be the only source, then maybe it is fair, because the supplier is spending their game time to mine said resource, if you think that is outrageous, then you have the free will to go mine it for yourself for free, all it will cost you is time.
The Commodity or demand for Niobium. This resource along with its close cousin Tin, are used in all of the materials used to build gates and now terraforming. With the new patch the demand will be higher because now the costs to terraform use the same core materials.

For your edification if you weren't aware...it costs ~2559.75 Superconducting Coils to make a single Promethium Capacitor. Each Coil is made of .05 electronics, .05 Mechanical Parts, .4 Niobium .4 Tin, .2 Carbon

so we take 2559.75 * .4 = 3583.65 Niobium need for a single Capacitor

Additionally, Stock Markets are used by everyone here who move product from one colony/OSB to another via NPC ships. One way to do this without someone else purchasing your materials, is to give it an insane price that no one would rightfully purchase the materials for then buy it on the other end for 1 credit more. This will register with the NPC haulers as a profit and they will move that product from OSB A to OSB B

People do have to be careful with doing this because should OSB B get too far behind in its purchase orders then someone could sell the product to them and make a huge profit, but if they can keep up the demand or limit the demand to a small amount then it could be a useful way to keep others out of your supply.

We have had this discussion from other players about the economy, many people expect and want, to profit from trading of basic goods, but most players goals are to be self sufficient, which removes the market dependency from relying on others.

If this game was designed so that you basically had to "choose a path" or job or role, because it was too expensive to specialize in more than one thing...then you would create a market that promoted co-dependency. Iron Miners would be dependent on Grain Farmers for food to feed their workers, and Grain Farmers would be dependent on Iron Miners for construction materials.

This just simply isn't the case here, and credits essentially at some point in your advancement in the game become moot.



I haven't found any TF mods that need tin/nio at present. Prom is however needed.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby gotpurplefleas » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:05 pm

Hi all,
Well Money I initially react with a feeling that your time would best be spent researching other projects...while economics has it's base in several sciences, it is not best decided by scientists...lol. Also, this game has several bugs, glitches, and quirks that make many of your logical arguments erroneous and moot.

I don't sell my nio/tin at all...but...hmm...I think if you want to buy it for 210k per ton I will gladly break that rule.

have fun with it... :) :P :P :lol:

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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby rmartz » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:40 pm

davh62 wrote:
I haven't found any TF mods that need tin/nio at present. Prom is however needed.

Well, they take coils that take nio and tin to make. :)
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Xanuri » Fri Jun 10, 2016 8:22 pm

davh62 wrote:
Xanuri wrote:That gave me a headache, but I think I might have read between the lines, although I am not 100% sure, so here is a response based on my interpretation of what you attempted to say in English but instead used math.

Is it fair to sell Niobium for 210K cr/t?

The answer is, are you willing to pay it? If so, then its your in-game money, spend it how you want to.

If the answer is no, then don't, you simply find another source. IF it happens to be the only source, then maybe it is fair, because the supplier is spending their game time to mine said resource, if you think that is outrageous, then you have the free will to go mine it for yourself for free, all it will cost you is time.
The Commodity or demand for Niobium. This resource along with its close cousin Tin, are used in all of the materials used to build gates and now terraforming. With the new patch the demand will be higher because now the costs to terraform use the same core materials.

For your edification if you weren't aware...it costs ~2559.75 Superconducting Coils to make a single Promethium Capacitor. Each Coil is made of .05 electronics, .05 Mechanical Parts, .4 Niobium .4 Tin, .2 Carbon

so we take 2559.75 * .4 = 3583.65 Niobium need for a single Capacitor

Additionally, Stock Markets are used by everyone here who move product from one colony/OSB to another via NPC ships. One way to do this without someone else purchasing your materials, is to give it an insane price that no one would rightfully purchase the materials for then buy it on the other end for 1 credit more. This will register with the NPC haulers as a profit and they will move that product from OSB A to OSB B

People do have to be careful with doing this because should OSB B get too far behind in its purchase orders then someone could sell the product to them and make a huge profit, but if they can keep up the demand or limit the demand to a small amount then it could be a useful way to keep others out of your supply.

We have had this discussion from other players about the economy, many people expect and want, to profit from trading of basic goods, but most players goals are to be self sufficient, which removes the market dependency from relying on others.

If this game was designed so that you basically had to "choose a path" or job or role, because it was too expensive to specialize in more than one thing...then you would create a market that promoted co-dependency. Iron Miners would be dependent on Grain Farmers for food to feed their workers, and Grain Farmers would be dependent on Iron Miners for construction materials.

This just simply isn't the case here, and credits essentially at some point in your advancement in the game become moot.



I haven't found any TF mods that need tin/nio at present. Prom is however needed.


So the SC requirement doesn't require Tin/Nio?
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Moneyman » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:14 pm

Xanuri wrote:That gave me a headache, but I think I might have read between the lines, although I am not 100% sure, so here is a response based on my interpretation of what you attempted to say in English but instead used math.

Is it fair to sell Niobium for 210K cr/t?

The answer is, are you willing to pay it? If so, then its your in-game money, spend it how you want to.

If the answer is no, then don't, you simply find another source. IF it happens to be the only source, then maybe it is fair, because the supplier is spending their game time to mine said resource, if you think that is outrageous, then you have the free will to go mine it for yourself for free, all it will cost you is time.

The Commodity or demand for Niobium. This resource along with its close cousin Tin, are used in all of the materials used to build gates and now terraforming. With the new patch the demand will be higher because now the costs to terraform use the same core materials.

For your edification if you weren't aware...it costs ~2559.75 Superconducting Coils to make a single Promethium Capacitor. Each Coil is made of .05 electronics, .05 Mechanical Parts, .4 Niobium .4 Tin, .2 Carbon

so we take 2559.75 * .4 = 3583.65 Niobium need for a single Capacitor

Additionally, Stock Markets are used by everyone here who move product from one colony/OSB to another via NPC ships. One way to do this without someone else purchasing your materials, is to give it an insane price that no one would rightfully purchase the materials for then buy it on the other end for 1 credit more. This will register with the NPC haulers as a profit and they will move that product from OSB A to OSB B

People do have to be careful with doing this because should OSB B get too far behind in its purchase orders then someone could sell the product to them and make a huge profit, but if they can keep up the demand or limit the demand to a small amount then it could be a useful way to keep others out of your supply.

We have had this discussion from other players about the economy, many people expect and want, to profit from trading of basic goods, but most players goals are to be self sufficient, which removes the market dependency from relying on others.

If this game was designed so that you basically had to "choose a path" or job or role, because it was too expensive to specialize in more than one thing...then you would create a market that promoted co-dependency. Iron Miners would be dependent on Grain Farmers for food to feed their workers, and Grain Farmers would be dependent on Iron Miners for construction materials.

This just simply isn't the case here, and credits essentially at some point in your advancement in the game become moot.


:mrgreen: Thank you for your thoughtful response to my post - I understand your reasoning and respect your longer term experience with the game.

:o What you didn't mention, maybe you don't agree, is mining is not easy for all players - I spent hours in a Mammoth and had 8 tin and no niobium because I was constantly overshooting the asteroids I was trying to mine.

:arrow: Ok, let them overcharge, my opinion, BUT give me an advantage that offsets my difficulty with mining - its obvious its a very low priority with JAM because he doesn't understand that it drives players out of the game.

:) I hope you don't think I'm on a soapbox, I am determined to be heard AND I'm noticed that some players do think the way I do - Sorry about my math but its as easy for me as mining is probably for you - I'm not leaving the game no matter what the obstacles since this community works for me.
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Re: Barter vs Monopoly

Postby Moneyman » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:05 pm

Mooncrest wrote:I am not sure who owns FreeRange, but this price sounds like a carry-over from the Price War we had last year. If that is the case it shows that the price is too high as no-one has cleaned out the stock yet.

BTW: you have used the Contract Price at NPC Stations to calculate the average price for Niobium. NPC prices are static and not affected by supply or demand. Niobium and Tin are in very high demand by Players and the price Players are willing to pay reflects that. A better method of calculating a fair price would be to look at the prices Player's are willing to buy a commodity for on the Stock Market and work out a fair price using that data. For Niobium and Tin around 100k is about right as I agree with rmartz: much higher than that allows new Players to move through the ship classes too quickly, thus they miss out on learning the more subtle things about the game. I just wish we could rein in the hauling of Carbon, but at least that only gets really viable when your ship gets big enough.

It would be nice to be able to play Ascent as a Trader; buying and selling commodities around the Galaxy, but in practice, this is really not an option.The main reason being that only Niobium, Tin and possibly Promethium are viable commodities to trade and the players who mine them, sell them direct. The other great draw back is the lack of a viability check on a Stock market Buy Order; which allows non-viable Buy Orders to appear in the Stock Market Search Results list. This can be very frustrating for Players who arrive at a Stock Market and cannot sell the their cargo.


:mrgreen: Good response but it overlooks Fleas comment about the recent loss of many game players.

:arrow: There isn't a player game advantage balance, ex: mining is easy for some and not so easy for others.

:x Game playing difficulties drive players out of a game - everyone starts to think the same way.

:idea: A variety of skillsets is more powerful (large population) than everyone having, roughly, the same skills (small population).
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