ECONOMICS, cost of production

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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby BoshingTong » Sun May 28, 2017 10:15 pm

I think we need an upkeep cost to go with wages based on # of buildings. That might fix some of that, or are repair cost in mats need per day per building. Make it like fert or uranium that it gets used automatically from warehouse. That would also work.

_o/ on Day 276.75/34ER
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby Wulf » Sun May 28, 2017 10:34 pm

BoshingTong wrote:I think we need an upkeep cost to go with wages based on # of buildings. That might fix some of that, or are repair cost in mats need per day per building. Make it like fert or uranium that it gets used automatically from warehouse. That would also work.

_o/ on Day 276.75/34ER



don't understand how this could help? increase the credits losses running a colony? doesn't seem like it will help anything, except increase the gap between the havs and the poor that can't afford a money losing colony.

an option is to remover haulers and have colonies auto sell to core, that would be great, might get some cash flow happening say allow any gated system to automatically dump 50% of it's daily production. if we are planning to keep this system might as well really blow it out.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby BoshingTong » Sun May 28, 2017 11:14 pm

Wulf wrote:an option is to remover haulers and have colonies auto sell to core, that would be great, might get some cash flow happening say allow any gated system to automatically dump 50% of it's daily production. if we are planning to keep this system might as well really blow it out.


This would be nice and would rid the need of most of the NPCs.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby Mooncrest » Mon May 29, 2017 12:24 pm

Sorry, Wulf, I had completely misunderstood what you meant by Cost of Production.

As things are now, a Player will establish a colony, paying for the buildings to be built. Then the Player will pay for Colonists to populate the colony so that the mines, farms and factories at the colony can start producing minerals, food and components, which are stored in a warehouse and available for sale to other Players. In addition the Player now has to pay the colonists a wage, the amount depending on their education level. The wages paid by the Player to the colonists is the Cost of Labour element of the Cost of Production. The Player will also be paying for any materials used in the manufacturing process that the colony does not produce for itself. This is the Cost of Materials element of the Cost of Production. The Player has invested money in building the colony and populating it. This is a capital outlay and normal accounting methods would recover this sum over time. The wages of the non-productive staff: Medical, University, Research and Control Office staff are also paid by the Player. These two items constitute the Overhead element of the Cost of Production.

You seemed to be suggesting an additional element to be added to the Cost of Production, which would give the colonists some extra cash and a small amount to the Player. However, I realise that that is not the case. What you are suggesting is that part of the sales revenue be given to the Colonists and a smaller part given to the Player. Using your example of Iron.

Wulf wrote:Iron 5,000,000 50 200,000 55 7,000,000 55

This lists 5,000,000 Iron in the warehouse. Instructions tell the system to sell Iron at a price of 55 until 200,000 tons are in the warehouse. It also tells the system to buy iron at 55 until there are 7,000,000 tons in the warehouse.

As I interpret your suggestion, when a ton of Iron is sold:
  • the Buyer pays 55 credits split as follows
  • 45 credits will be given to the colonists
  • 5 credits will be given to the Player
  • 5 more credits will be given to the Player as Profit

With the current system:
  • the Buyer pays 55 credits
  • 55 credits will be given to the Player
  • the player gives less than one credit to the colonists as their wages

I am pretty certain this is not what you intended, but it seems to me to be what you have suggested.

If you want to make colonies more profitable all that you can do is to sell the product at a higher price.

The only way a colony will generate a revenue is by selling its produce. Until that time the colony will always be a drain on the Player's credits. This is why NPC Pilots are so important. This little but of automation allows a Player not to be devoted to hauling produce to the market all the time. Jam's game philosophy will not allow automatic sales from your colony warehouse to the Local Markets. That is why NPC Pilots are not allowed to trade with the NPC Star Stations and ISB.

It is now obvious that what myself and BoshingTong are suggesting is at odds with your suggestion. It seems to me, as well, that your suggestion also does not give the outcome that you desire. In the above example unless the 50 Cost of Production is paid in addition to the 55 Sales Revenue making the total price of one ton of Iron 105, there is no additional income for the Player. If the price of one ton of Iron were 105 in the current system then the Player would receive 105 for each ton of Iron, not 60 as in your scenario.

I may still be misinterpreting this. Hopefully you will correct me if I am.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby Wulf » Mon May 29, 2017 12:38 pm

Mooncrest wrote:Sorry, Wulf, I had completely misunderstood what you meant by Cost of Production.


It is now obvious that what myself and BoshingTong are suggesting is at odds with your suggestion. It seems to me, as well, that your suggestion also does not give the outcome that you desire. In the above example unless the 50 Cost of Production is paid in addition to the 55 Sales Revenue making the total price of one ton of Iron 105, there is no additional income for the Player. If the price of one ton of Iron were 105 in the current system then the Player would receive 105 for each ton of Iron, not 60 as in your scenario.

I may still be misinterpreting this. Hopefully you will correct me if I am.



this is correct, the player only gets a tiny bit but it's more then the negative value of colonies that is currently happening (base price or CoP players get 5-10%, it's a base like 1 is right now). we pay wages ect regardless of the sales and considering everything is usually 1 credit that means colonies are always bleeding red. npc's can still haul just the base prices will be hire, no more free carbon to exploit. but the real 'money' for players should be the general demands and contracts that the colonies (and osb's) can generate.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby Mooncrest » Mon May 29, 2017 1:33 pm

OK, just checkng that I have this right now.

Your suggestion would be that:
  • Players stop paying wages
  • Instead each commodity is assigned a Cost of Production
  • When the Buyer pays for the commodity the amount paid will be the Cost of Production plus an amount set by the Player as his profit
    In your example for Iron this would mean that the Buyer pays 105 credits per ton of Iron
  • The amount the Buyer pays is then split between the colonists and the Player: the colonists getting 90% to 95% (To Be Determined) of the CoP and the Player gets 5% to 10% of the CoP plus the amount set as profit
This means that the Player does not have to put any additional funds into the colony once the colonists are established. The colonists get their reward for their labour only when the products are sold.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby davh62 » Mon May 29, 2017 1:45 pm

You surely cannot be serious? Colonists get paid wages both to work or if unemployed. We also supply all their food, medical care along with free wine/beer etc. We also paid them to come to our establishments.
They cannot take a share of ALL sales. Do you think I would allow that in any of my RW businesses? :D

I would suggest there is a set "min wage law" hardcoded to compensate the ridiculous wages we pay our colonists. Maybe between 10-50 per colonist.

Would you find it realistic for say 500K colonists to just up sticks & move to a system on the premise that they MIGHT get some profit shares? How do they eat & survive it the colony doesn't trade?
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby BoshingTong » Mon May 29, 2017 3:21 pm

I too think Wulf's system is not effective as what it is now. Also the need rewrite of the HoN code would be way to time consuming for Jam. It still will not solve the main issue of over production. Infinite resources means infinite credits because of infinite demand. Jam has said he is not going to change that, so we need to come at this from inside that framework.

A upkeep or repair cost in mats would help. Maybe .2% of the building cost per day for each mat as upkeep. This would be used by a new building type. Engineering Repairs It would pull mats from the warehouse to keep mines and farms etc...running. We would need to have 1 for every 10-15 buildings like control offices. Most of the workers would need to be Unv. trained. If you don't have them your building suffer 25% efficiency loss. Which would roll up till either you have enough buildings or people or mats to make repairs.

Rolling up would mean that a Farm Control Office is now only able to control 75% of the farms. That would mean for 25% they are now inefficiency. The farm is now 25% down for repairs and what ever the lack of control is would be add to it, making it more inefficient.

This is just like the HoN on the people, but for buildings. Got to make the buildings happy. They are people too.

_o/ on Day 282.45/34ER
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby RAM » Mon May 29, 2017 4:55 pm

BoshingTong wrote:I too think Wulf's system is not effective as what it is now. Also the need rewrite of the HoN code would be way to time consuming for Jam. It still will not solve the main issue of over production. Infinite resources means infinite credits because of infinite demand. Jam has said he is not going to change that, so we need to come at this from inside that framework.

A upkeep or repair cost in mats would help. Maybe .2% of the building cost per day for each mat as upkeep. This would be used by a new building type. Engineering Repairs It would pull mats from the warehouse to keep mines and farms etc...running. We would need to have 1 for every 10-15 buildings like control offices. Most of the workers would need to be Unv. trained. If you don't have them your building suffer 25% efficiency loss. Which would roll up till either you have enough buildings or people or mats to make repairs.

Rolling up would mean that a Farm Control Office is now only able to control 75% of the farms. That would mean for 25% they are now inefficiency. The farm is now 25% down for repairs and what ever the lack of control is would be add to it, making it more inefficient.

This is just like the HoN on the people, but for buildings. Got to make the buildings happy. They are people too.

_o/ on Day 282.45/34ER


I like something on this line a lot more. A little more complicated than I would do, but I like the idea. If Jam adds Colonists consuming more than food, that would help too. None of it will solve the infinite supply issue that can not be fixed with current game dynamics. Not sure I would want to start playing a game that others have used up most the close supplies and leaves me on the margins trying to find more.
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Re: ECONOMICS, cost of production

Postby Wulf » Mon May 29, 2017 5:23 pm

Mooncrest wrote:OK, just checkng that I have this right now.

Your suggestion would be that:
  • Players stop paying wages
  • Instead each commodity is assigned a Cost of Production
  • When the Buyer pays for the commodity the amount paid will be the Cost of Production plus an amount set by the Player as his profit
    In your example for Iron this would mean that the Buyer pays 105 credits per ton of Iron
  • The amount the Buyer pays is then split between the colonists and the Player: the colonists getting 90% to 95% (To Be Determined) of the CoP and the Player gets 5% to 10% of the CoP plus the amount set as profit
This means that the Player does not have to put any additional funds into the colony once the colonists are established. The colonists get their reward for their labour only when the products are sold.



no, well i guess if you want to try and sell iron for a big profit yes, not sure where you got the double dipping idea, it's just 50 base price for iron. that is it. if you want more profits set whatever price you want and think you can sell it for.

i don't want hons crap redone it's here now what i do want is the wage stuff in laws removed and a governance type to replace it BUT that is only optional.

in effort to make this the lest amount of work for Jam I am keeping it simple. that is why it's only applied to SM trades, yes this leaves a flaw when a player moves there own stuff, but for simplicity and get at lest something working this is the fastest most effective means.
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