Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

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Johneaux

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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby Johneaux » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:48 am

jam wrote:Every time I suggest I fix stacks there's a chorus of protests, some people like them. Idno why they're pretty ugly.


I do like them but they are unnatural and should be fixed

jam wrote:Once I add outer belts you'll see a lot more management of them.

People keep asking when that will be... do we want it before stock markets or player made gates?


yes before
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby rmartz » Wed Jun 04, 2014 2:43 pm

There is always one slagger in the crowd ...

I vote for stock markets first.

I will share why. I think some may be being a little short sighted. Maybe I am just looking at it from a different place. Here is my thinking.

Stock Markets should be a pretty easy and quick thing. Basically, it will let us sell our production in colony and not have to haul anymore. This will be a great assistance since hauling has become such a grind. We can gear up our colonies for max production and let them run. This will give us time to do other things.

Outer asteroid belts will be nice, but I feel there is a lot of work to make them an asset to the game instead of an imbalance.

I may be wrong about the coding, but I have suspicions the stock market will be days while asteroid belts will be week+ to hammer out. I think this is why Jam has put it off. I also think there needs to be some time for domes and stock markets to come on line to see how they are really going to change game dynamics. I think stock markets will have a much better and quicker game dynamic improvement then asteroid belts we do no really even know where they are yet. Yes, I am a bird in the hand person.

I also think there is a reason why Jam is keeping nio a little hard to get. I think it has to do with making sure players are active to acquire it and not just go off and show up a month later with so much and mess with the balance of active players. I think this is smart game dynamics. If this is the case, I applaud his forethought on this.

I love mining and would love to get an asteroid belt and manage it. I think this would be a lot of fun. I look forward to this. I do not want to manage a belt, leave the game come back in weeks and have so much nio that I disrupt the game from others.

I do agree that jump gates are not as important now since we can store hydrogen. I can see them being valuable as we move towards buy orders. This will let me set up buy orders for new players and let them haul the iron I need for a gate or such thing to the location I need much easier. I would hope gas stations would come on line by then so we can sell hydrogen to passers by.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby Darmand » Wed Jun 04, 2014 5:55 pm

Actually, i think you have the Nio situation wrong.

We are looking at a two fold problem, at least.

One Nio that is on the market is mainly being mined by new players.
And used by a very few builders.

The rest are like me, mainly mine, and use the nio they get, for themselves.

We may (barely) have enough new people coming to keep 2-3 builders supplied if they do not build too much. The older players would not sell their nio for any price. I know i wouldn't. Too hard to come by.

Most of the older players do not mine any more. They spend the majority of their time out at colonies. So they are building strictly for them selves the majority of the time.

If we had some convenient places out system to mine a bit that would not be constantly ruined by cherry picking, i think we would see more of both nio, and builders building just to list stuff on the GM.

What is the point of having even more credit making (stock market) for older players that have plenty now? Over having lots more places we could go to for Nio? More Nio would mean more items being built, not just for themselves, but to list stuff on GM.

We need outer belts placed so we can make colonies there at those systems. Then we can possibly get rid of a major road block of builders. The lack of plenty of resources to actually build with.

Keeping nio in short supply in no way helps the game that i can see. Kind of like the huge time investment in research. We lose people way before they get to where they can make much at all in the building part of game.

Something like 67 days to get just 1 item to class 12, at those time frames we will never have very many builders that stay in game long enough to research and then build and sell on GM. Anything else added on top like shortages of nio or whatever and it just makes it even harder to get any type of real market going.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby madmax » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:55 pm

Darmand wrote:Actually, i think you have the Nio situation wrong.

Keeping nio in short supply in no way helps the game that i can see. Kind of like the huge time investment in research. We lose people way before they get to where they can make much at all in the building part of game.


Making nio pletyfull will have an inverse affect of making things too easy to build....on on ehand you have a game that demands time, patience and effort to build..or you can have quick, dirty and boring after a while.

Has to be a balance, and simply flooding the mineral market by making it available where ever will not balance anything. You need to drive the interactions, and perhaps when buy orders hit there will be a spot to allow older players to give new players something better to do than cherry pick...in reality the cherry picking only happens because people are paying insane prices for nio. while almost no one seems to put any effort into iron etc.. I need tonnes for my current builds and if I thought I could get young players to mine it for me..I would...and they'd make more per hour mining all the iron needed than the smaller nio amounts.

so the problem is not the presence of asteroids, but the absence of a market to exchange these goods in a larger scale.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby Darmand » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:34 pm

madmax wrote:
Darmand wrote:Actually, i think you have the Nio situation wrong.

Keeping nio in short supply in no way helps the game that i can see. Kind of like the huge time investment in research. We lose people way before they get to where they can make much at all in the building part of game.


Making nio pletyfull will have an inverse affect of making things too easy to build....on on ehand you have a game that demands time, patience and effort to build..or you can have quick, dirty and boring after a while.

Has to be a balance, and simply flooding the mineral market by making it available where ever will not balance anything. You need to drive the interactions, and perhaps when buy orders hit there will be a spot to allow older players to give new players something better to do than cherry pick...in reality the cherry picking only happens because people are paying insane prices for nio. while almost no one seems to put any effort into iron etc.. I need tonnes for my current builds and if I thought I could get young players to mine it for me..I would...and they'd make more per hour mining all the iron needed than the smaller nio amounts.

so the problem is not the presence of asteroids, but the absence of a market to exchange these goods in a larger scale.



And just who is going to supply all this nio on a large scale? Or where will it come from to fill this "larger scale" market? We already have a HUGE detraction to building anything the time it takes to research things. And adding extremely rare nio adds more problems.

Even putting belts just as they are in Vulcan and Veritas in EVERY outer system would not magically make them produce tons of nio, you still need folks to mine it. And from my understanding that is not what is going to happen anyhow. The outer belts may very well be all iron here or all silicon, but i really doubt that there will EVER be a pure Nio belt. So again even in the outer belts the rare nio will most likely be continued.

The best market in the world can not make nio, that takes people willing and able to mine it AND places to do so, not just the 2 starter areas. The GM as is is perfectly fine to trade the small amount of nio that people are willing to sell.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby madmax » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:10 am

Darmand wrote:
And just who is going to supply all this nio on a large scale? Or where will it come from to fill this "larger scale" market? We already have a HUGE detraction to building anything the time it takes to research things. And adding extremely rare nio adds more problems.

Even putting belts just as they are in Vulcan and Veritas in EVERY outer system would not magically make them produce tons of nio, you still need folks to mine it. And from my understanding that is not what is going to happen anyhow. The outer belts may very well be all iron here or all silicon, but i really doubt that there will EVER be a pure Nio belt. So again even in the outer belts the rare nio will most likely be continued.

The best market in the world can not make nio, that takes people willing and able to mine it AND places to do so, not just the 2 starter areas. The GM as is is perfectly fine to trade the small amount of nio that people are willing to sell.


This is a chicken and the egg issue...the problem is your trying to solve a perceived shortage...when later...with more people you will have excess. its short sighted to assume throwing more asteroids solves your shorter term shortage if your fundamental argument is finding who will supply this.

The time to get to a point to build things means newer younger players are not needing these other resources and will ultimately want more money to invest in better ships and gear...thus selling the nio.

Adding buy orders will allow the players producing to get what they need without having to worry about it. Just right now, there is no market tools to support what you need and thus that would make sense before asteroids.

No one's saying never do asteroids, but simply there are better or higher priority fixes that can handle the pains and set up the game for growth....where as asteroids just bandages the "cherry pickers".
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby jam » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:42 am

Some good points raised here.

I'll weigh in a little bit, hopefully received in the spirit it's given...

On my numbers no move I make will cause catastrophic problems - just changes in the economy. If I open up outer belts right now in any form, the price of nio will fall, but not to zero. It's still required in huge quantities, and it still takes time, effort and skill to extract.

Another point worth raising is that stock markets have both buy and sell orders available, and effectively also transport orders since you need to bring the stuff to the market to sell it.

Lastly, stock markets will only work when people transport stuff to them. They will have a big effect on the market once they get going. A newbie trader with a decent ship and hyperdrive will be able to make a living from outer colony trading most likely, as producers will offer their stuff at a low price to encourage buying it, and their needs at a high price to encourage supply.

Most places will likely be offering cheap hydrogen for sale as well, meaning trading will be relatively fast, with skimming in between jumps pretty rare.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby domderek » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:55 am

jam wrote:Some good points raised here.

I'll weigh in a little bit, hopefully received in the spirit it's given...

On my numbers no move I make will cause catastrophic problems - just changes in the economy. If I open up outer belts right now in any form, the price of nio will fall, but not to zero. It's still required in huge quantities, and it still takes time, effort and skill to extract.

Perhaps release outer asteroid belts and the seraph at the same time? Or around each other? This would help balance the price of nio out, or at least not make it seing drastically (I'm assuming the demand for Seraph's will cause nio to skyrocket, at least initially)

Another point worth raising is that stock markets have both buy and sell orders available, and effectively also transport orders since you need to bring the stuff to the market to sell it.

Lastly, stock markets will only work when people transport stuff to them. They will have a big effect on the market once they get going. A newbie trader with a decent ship and hyperdrive will be able to make a living from outer colony trading most likely, as producers will offer their stuff at a low price to encourage buying it, and their needs at a high price to encourage supply.

Most places will likely be offering cheap hydrogen for sale as well, meaning trading will be relatively fast, with skimming in between jumps pretty rare.


Interested to see how stock markets will work. I really like the idea, but will be hard to tell until the actual trading on them begins.
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Re: Suggestion: "Fixing" asteroid belts.

Postby rmartz » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:17 am

jam wrote:Another point worth raising is that stock markets have both buy and sell orders available, and effectively also transport orders since you need to bring the stuff to the market to sell it.

Lastly, stock markets will only work when people transport stuff to them. They will have a big effect on the market once they get going. A newbie trader with a decent ship and hyperdrive will be able to make a living from outer colony trading most likely, as producers will offer their stuff at a low price to encourage buying it, and their needs at a high price to encourage supply.

Most places will likely be offering cheap hydrogen for sale as well, meaning trading will be relatively fast, with skimming in between jumps pretty rare.


I can easily produce 50,000 tons of food a day. Just waiting for a good market to sell it. If it has to be hauled, it will limit how much I can sell and will have to haul more. Will local markets be a part of the stock market so we can sell our excess without having to haul since 12+ people are on the same planet which can out produce all the people we have willing to haul?

I have been focusing on metals knowing we will need the production for jump gates. I want to set up domes to produce foods also. If I have to haul it all, I will stay with metals since the selling price is so much better.

Just some additional thoughts to think about.
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