Mining Yield Modifications

Complain about the nerfs here
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Mooncrest » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:08 pm

I've been thinking long and hard about this. The reason that we get a significant drop after 100 days is that the nerf only kicks in after 100 days and this produces a significant drop in yield. So, I was wrong about there being a way we could bend the Percent curve the other way, we cannot; it is the way the maths works.

So I have produced a chart of the Current Formula versus the 100 days formula the same formula but nerfing from Day 1. It looks like this:

Image

As can be seen, if the nerf kicks in earlier we get an even more reduced yield all the way along. To make the first couple of hundred days more clear I produced this chart:

Image

The yield is always somewhat lower from the start, but, hopefully no-one will notice as the yields are minimal compared to the yield difference at 100 days and 101 days.

For myself, I'd like to keep the 100 days of "normal" growth before the nerf kicks in. This, at least, allows a decent yield for newbies after three months; which is an age if you are starting out and those who can/will not wait a year before harvesting their roids. The 0.95 nerf seems to be enough, if we take into account the upcoming Silicon Filter and, hopefully, an increase in demand for Tin/Nio if/when a new Class of ship arrives. Remembering that Tin/Nio demand doubles with each ship Class and there may be other additional demands on Tin/Nio for more and more Superconducting Coils as the Jump Gate Network expands.

To calculate the yield using the nerf, first, we need to calculate the Effective Age of the asteroid. We do this with the formula:

EffectiveAge = IF( Age of Asteroid > 100, ROUND( POWER(( Age of Asteroid -100), 0.95), Age of Asteroid)

We can than use this in the existing formula for yield:

Actual Yield = (Mining Beam Class + EffectiveAge) * Base Yield * (1 + (Mining Skill / (Mining Skill +100)))
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby RAM » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:05 pm

What if we removed the 100 days and went to .96? Would the adjust the yeild while still keeping it simple?
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Loke » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:42 pm

.
Last edited by Loke on Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Callsign: Fraaggii or Loke
Mining yield calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
RAM wrote: Loving the SiFi but Loke got his first.
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby RAM » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:56 pm

I really like the .96. Here it is blue compared to red .95 at 100 days and current, green from Loke's sheet.

Image

I vote for blue and keep it simple. The difference between the blue and red are pretty small and will have no affect on game play.
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Loke » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:04 am

RAM wrote:I really like the .96

Unfortunatly I see 3 cons with that compared to cap 100 and power 0.95:
-At 100 days yield gets nerfed from 630 to 529
-Yield growth is close to linear, doesnt decrease much at all over time
-Its less nerf for 2+ years old roids, even at 10 years old its only a 28% nerf (its 33% nerf for 0.95 and cap 100)

Are we then left with enough pros that its worth the risk changing the yield calculations?





I wanted to shut up about nicely curved options, but I adjusted the numbers a bit and its too good to not suggest it. Its very close to the 0.95 and cap 100.
-It removes the need for adding another formula, so its very simple.
-It gives a small buff for fresh roids, peak at 12 days old with yield 168 (+22%) compard to currently 138. They have full burn time at that age, so I think that fits well.
-Very close to the same yield as 0.95 and cap 100 at 100 days, but avoids the sudden drop and instead curves the nerf
-Its a little less nerf at 360 days, yield 1961 compared to 1847 (0.95 and cap 100), then it curves down to same level at 4 years as the 0.95 and cap 100
-After 4 years it slightly increases the nerf as the years go by. Nerfing 36% at 10 years compared to 33% (0.95 and cap 100)
-My favorite part of it is the yield growth per day keeps decreasing nicely over time

=(Mining Beam Class + 2*POWER(Age of Asteroid;0.86))*Base Yield*(1+(Mining Skill/(Mining Skill+100)))
Thats it, the whole formula, only need to adjust a bit from the original.

details here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... d=25117574


Comparing the cap100 0.95 Suggestion 1 with cap0 0.96 Suggestion 2 and curved:
Image
cap100 0.95 and curved are very similar for 3 to 6 years old, curve will give a little less yield for 6+ years


Image
cap100 0.95 and curved are very similar for first 6 months, but there is a difference (curved gives less nerf) after that until 2+ years


Image
Yield growth per day keeps decreasing over time for the curved one, and no sudden drop. Somewhat makes it worth minig a field to start it over again for faster growth, but that would probably only matter for rare fields we have few of.


Ok, now Ill try shut up, dont think I have more numbers I want to show.
Callsign: Fraaggii or Loke
Mining yield calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Mooncrest » Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:06 am

I've played with Loke's formula myself and I think it looks good. I highlighted the first few months to see the effect at the beginning of the asteroid growth.

Image

The growth is slightly above the current; which may not be a bad idea. Over time this drops off nicely, also.

Image
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby RAM » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:43 am

I think you two are too much numbers guys. I mean, who mines 100 day old rocks when you can mine 4 year old rocks?

You pop a 100 day old rock in a field, you say, nope. I am moving on and go.

Once you find one several years old, you stop to mine because of the yields. 2+ years old. Who really mines fields younger except the two Inner fields.

A new player has a low mining skill and small beam. The percents are quite little in actual numbers to them. To us they make a bigger difference, but we don't mine rocks less then 3-4 years anyway.

It is not that I am opposed to a fancier formula, I just don't see the need. I don't even see the need for a 100 day cap. We are talking a few nio and tin here and there. By the time someone is in game for a few weeks, they are already mining old fields. I really don't know anyone mining 100 day old rocks. Maybe I am wrong. I just don't see it.
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Loke » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:59 am

RAM wrote:I think you two are too much numbers guys.
:lol: I know, nothing new. But the current flat growth of yield has been bothering me for years, so now that we are discussing changing it I thought its a good timing to try and improve it. I agree that some nerf makes sense, but that is not my main motivation to change it.
I fear we scare away anyone else posting their opinion though, as we are already on 4 pages with a lot of numbers :oops: Moons graphs are very pretty though, and easy to read/understand :)

RAM wrote:I mean, who mines 100 day old rocks when you can mine 4 year old rocks?
FOr nio/tin? probably not. For gold i have many times. ADNA too probably if we will need large amounts. Yttrium even as well, after finding a bast, waiting 2-3 months to get enough yield to make a ytt reactor for a Bow seems worth it to me.
But I dont know how people play, so you could be right and it doesnt matter. I just suggest what makes most sense for any age and avoid having to think about that. For me its simpler to make sense of numbers than to make sense of people :P

RAM wrote:You pop a 100 day old rock in a field, you say, nope. I am moving on and go
With the current flat growth it doesnt make sense no. You will get about the same total from miniing a field after 6 years as you would if you mined it every 2 year. Its like the game tells you to not play it for 6 years and then return to mine

RAM wrote:I don't even see the need for a 100 day cap.
I just find it easier to accept a nerf (including the risk of angering players) if there is also an improvement that comes with it. For me I will go from 13k nio per roid to 9k (10k with your suggestion), I agree that makes sense but it doesnt mean I will enjoy it in game. And nio/tin is not what I worry most about. Simplest solution will always be keeping it as is. I support changing it if we are sure that the new yield caclucations are as good as they can be, otherwise Im not sure its worth the risk of loosing returning players.

I find it more motivating and fun to go out searching for more fields with rare roids if I know they grow faster the first year
Callsign: Fraaggii or Loke
Mining yield calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Mooncrest » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:40 am

RAM wrote:I think you two are too much numbers guys.

Yup, it came with my former career; too closely associated with accountants. Put numbers and formulae in front of me and I just have to play with them. :D

RAM wrote:I mean, who mines 100 day old rocks when you can mine 4 year old rocks?

We are currently in a situation where there are 4yo roids to mine. They are going to take some time to clear, but, I think, not another four years. I've been mining my systems constantly and am lucky if my roids get to six months old before its time to mine them again. Hopefully we will get new players who will find their own fields and may want to mine them asap. Though with all the public fields now in a database they can still find old roids to mine, if they want.

I do rather like Loke's formula. It is not to fancy, but it does give a slight gain in yield in the first three/four months of growth...

Image

and after that it curves off nicely giving a nerf that does not look too bad...

Image
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Re: Mining Yield Modifications

Postby Loke » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:24 pm

Mooncrest wrote:Loke's formula. It is not to fancy

Its super omega fancy!!!
Look:
=(Mining Beam Class + 2*POWER(Age of Asteroid;0.86))*Base Yield*(1+(Mining Skill/(Mining Skill+100)))
its soooo much more complicated than the cap0 power 0.96 formula:
=(Mining Beam Class + POWER(Age of Asteroid;0.96))*Base Yield*(1+(Mining Skill/(Mining Skill+100)))

it has 2 more symbols :o
But that is enough to make it possible to decrease the power number and make it curve more.
My first suggestions were even more curved, but since cap 100 and power 0.95 seemed most popular, I made it closer to that
Callsign: Fraaggii or Loke
Mining yield calculator: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0
RAM wrote: Loving the SiFi but Loke got his first.
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